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Dark Fledgling
02-14-2010, 05:47 PM
So I have only just read the latest of the HORDES model rule updates and they have sparked several questions. I tried searching for responses but could not find any. But if you know of a previous post that answered my questions, a link would be most appreciated.

First, the way the Warwolf solo's Gang Fighter is worded it leads me to believe that they now benefit from the +2/+2 as long as there is a non-warbeast faction model with the enemy in their melee range. I concluded this by looking in my MkII prime which says on page 31 "Warcasters, troopers, and solos are collectively refered to as warriors."
Seeing as this ability is unique to the war wolves and that it has changed a lot during the field test I would like some conformation on this.

Second I have a further question about the interaction of the Wolves Sic' Em ability and the Reeves. If the Reeves fire at an enemy, hit and kill it, what happends? Do the Warwolves still get there free charge and if so who do they target? I am thinking that because there target is dead they may make a run like how troopers in a unit unable to charge a model may run.

My third question I have is a matter of the interaction between the Stoneward and Woldstalkers and Mohsars Sands of Fate spell. Obviously Mohsar cannot sands of fate into a Woldstalker as they are nonliving. He can however Sands of Fate into the Stoneward. Now, because Sands of Fate is not an enemy attack it does not proc Self-Sacrifice and the Stoneward indeed does die. Hence my question becomes if the Stoneward was to be lost in this manner (or in any other self inflicted wound) would we then see use of the field promotion rule turn a Woldstalker into the Stoneward? gaining the ability to use his special actions? Or would a Woldstalker simple then count as the leader for formation and leadership purposes.
Again, I am fairly sure that the latter is the case here but would like confirmation.

Lastly I have one final question on the Reeves. Previously Snap Fire allowed a water falling technique to be used allowing them to get several two man CRA's off in addition to a final single attack (assuming all attacks hit and kill). Towards the end of the field test there was talk of removing this technique in the forums but since it involves a fairly high understanding of the rules to make happen, If someone could A) tell me if it still works and B) explain how to do this, then I would be most appreciated.

Sorry for the fairly blockish paragraphs, but I tried to explain my questions as thoroughly as I could. Thanks again for the help and sorry if these questions have been answered elsewhere.

EDIT: One last thought, If Morraig is benefitting from flank from a group of Wolves of Orboros, does he gain the flank bonus on not just his Cleft Blade attacks but also his mounts attack aswell as the impact attacks? Thanks again.

-DF

Mix Master Gilgamesh
02-14-2010, 06:42 PM
1. War wolf with gang fighter does say friendly faction warrior model. So if the war wolf is engaged with a target who is also engaged by a friendly, Circle, non warbeast model then yes it goes off (however watch out for some of Circles models do not have a melee range hence don't engage: sentry stone, shifting stones, woldstalkers/not the stoneward).


2. Sic'em reads:

Sic 'Em [Reeve of Orboros] - Once per turn if this model is not in melee, when a friendly Reeve of Orboros hits an enemy model with an attack, immediately after the attack is resolved this model can charge the hit model. This model's charge attack roll
is boosted.

Now I do not have a clear cut ruling from this, but I would follow this in the rules:

Some effects require a model to charge. A model required to charge must charge a model to which it can draw line of sight. If there are no models in its line of sight, or if it cannot charge, the model activates but must forfeit its movement and action.
-Page 19 of the Hordes Rules PDF Paragraph 2-

My ruling would be that if the model hit is killed and no other model that was hit by a reeve is in the war wolf's LOS, then he can't target it. You can not charge w/o a charge target, hence you lose the Sic 'Em, but can activate the solo as usual.


3.If Mohsar targets the Stoneward, he can't use self-sacrifice because he dies from a friendly "attack". One of the woldstalker grunts will become the unit leader, but will not benefit from the stoneward special abilities, because they are still a woldstalker. This is the same for character units such as Croes Cutthroats and the Nyss Hunters (they lose the original leaders special rules, but still have a unit leader for squad coherency and orders purposes.


4. Reeves/Snapfire/Combined Range

Snap Fire - When this model destroys one or more enemy models with a ranged attack during its combat action, immediately after that attack is resolved this model can make one normal ranged attack. Attacks gained from Snap Fire do not count against
a weapon's ROF and cannot generate additional attacks from Snap Fire.

During CRA only the leader of the CRA is credited with the kill or having destroyed a model. Since snapfire only triggers on the destruction of a model, only the leader of the CRA can make the snapfire attack.

Examples: 10 reeves make individual attacks destroying 10 enemy models, all 10 may then perform a CRA (following the rules for a CRA). 10 Reeves CRA on one model and destroy it, the 1 leader may then make 1 individual attack. 10 Reeves pair up for CRA's and destroy 4 models, the 4 leaders of the successful CRA's may now form 2 pairs to make 2 more 2man CRA's.


5. Morraig and Flank w/Wolves of Orboros

Flank [Wolves of Orboros] - When this model makes a melee attack against an enemy model within the melee range of a friendly model of the type indicated, this model gains +2 to attack rolls and gains an additional damage die.

As Morraig's mount is a mount weapon that makes melee attacks, the flank will benefit it. However, you mentioned impact attacks, and Morraig does not make these as he is Light Cavalry.


A light cavalry model cannot make ride-by attacks or impact attacks. A light cavalry model can make initial attacks with its Mount. When making additional attacks, a light cavalry model can use its Mount.
-page 48 of the Hordes Rules PDF first paragraph under Light Cavalry-



Hope that helps, in the future, make multiple short posts, and you'll get quicker/more responses. :D

Rosicrucian
02-14-2010, 08:23 PM
1. Gang Fighter isn't unique. Bloody Bradigan in WM has it and it does work as you suspect.

3. The Stoneward is an Officer. Officers are never replaced via field promotion.

4. Waterfalling with non-charge attacks still works. The ability wasn't changed and the only "talk" came from forum users.

AmonadRodrigues
02-15-2010, 03:08 AM
2. Sic'em reads:
Quote:
Sic 'Em [Reeve of Orboros] - Once per turn if this model is not in melee, when a friendly Reeve of Orboros hits an enemy model with an attack, immediately after the attack is resolved this model can charge the hit model. This model's charge attack roll
is boosted.
Now I do not have a clear cut ruling from this, but I would follow this in the rules:
Quote:
Some effects require a model to charge. A model required to charge must charge a model to which it can draw line of sight. If there are no models in its line of sight, or if it cannot charge, the model activates but must forfeit its movement and action.
-Page 19 of the Hordes Rules PDF Paragraph 2-

My ruling would be that if the model hit is killed and no other model that was hit by a reeve is in the war wolf's LOS, then he can't target it. You can not charge w/o a charge target, hence you lose the Sic 'Em, but can activate the solo as usual.


Sic'em says you CAN charge. Nothing is lost if you don't and since you are not forced to charge, the rule making you run instead is not triggered. Although it says you can charge the model hit. If the model already died, you are not allowed to charge something else. You just can't use sic'em.

DB27
02-15-2010, 05:48 AM
4. Reeves/Snapfire/Combined Range

During CRA only the leader of the CRA is credited with the kill or having destroyed a model. Since snapfire only triggers on the destruction of a model, only the leader of the CRA can make the snapfire attack.

Examples: 10 reeves make individual attacks destroying 10 enemy models, all 10 may then perform a CRA (following the rules for a CRA). 10 Reeves CRA on one model and destroy it, the 1 leader may then make 1 individual attack. 10 Reeves pair up for CRA's and destroy 4 models, the 4 leaders of the successful CRA's may now form 2 pairs to make 2 more 2man CRA's.

Since the Reeves' rule says they can immediately make another attack after killing something with the first attack, the first part of your example doesn't work. At the point at which a model gets their Snap Fire attack, you could CRA with other models' initial attacks, but not their snap fire attack. If all 10 had hit and killed their initial models, each would get to make a single Snap Fire attack after each particular attack that killed a model. They don't make Snap Fire attacks after the entire unit has finished initial shooting attacks.

Mix Master Gilgamesh
02-15-2010, 05:49 AM
Sic'em says you CAN charge. Nothing is lost if you don't and since you are not forced to charge, the rule making you run instead is not triggered. Although it says you can charge the model hit. If the model already died, you are not allowed to charge something else. You just can't use sic'em.

My text must be confusing, this is what I was getting at, but I was attempting to cite relevant text to support my argument.

Apologies to all, occasionally my attempts to be a good logician result in failure. You found me out, I am Mix Master Gilgamesh, and I am human. :p

Mix Master Gilgamesh
02-15-2010, 05:57 AM
Since the Reeves' rule says they can immediately make another attack after killing something with the first attack, the first part of your example doesn't work. At the point at which a model gets their Snap Fire attack, you could CRA with other models' initial attacks, but not their snap fire attack. If all 10 had hit and killed their initial models, each would get to make a single Snap Fire attack after each particular attack that killed a model. They don't make Snap Fire attacks after the entire unit has finished initial shooting attacks.

Good point. Appologies again. This leads me to believe they are even worse than I once expected. Thank you. All my examples would be incorrect then, besides doing a/several combined ranged attacks and then making single shots from the specific leaders immediately.

Thank you for pointing that key word out. :D

Teleologica
02-15-2010, 09:22 AM
As I understand it, waterfaling is still possible. I think this is how it's done (if anyone more experienced spots a mistake or a better way of doing it, please correct me :))

If you have six Reeves, numbered 1-6, they fire like this:
2 fires CRA with 1
3 fires CRA with 2's snap fire
4 fires CRA with 3's snap fire
5 fires CRA with 4's snap fire
6 fires CRA with 5's snap fire
6 fires snap fire

So instead of six normal shots, or three two-man CRAs each with a single snap fire, you get five two-man CRAs and a single shot. Obv this is all dependent on every shot hitting and killing to generate the snap fires.

Dantes
02-15-2010, 09:55 AM
As I understand it, waterfaling is still possible. I think this is how it's done (if anyone more experienced spots a mistake or a better way of doing it, please correct me :))

If you have six Reeves, numbered 1-6, they fire like this:
2 fires CRA with 1
3 fires CRA with 2's snap fire
4 fires CRA with 3's snap fire
5 fires CRA with 4's snap fire
6 fires CRA with 5's snap fire
6 fires snap fire

So instead of six normal shots, or three two-man CRAs each with a single snap fire, you get five two-man CRAs and a single shot. Obv this is all dependent on every shot hitting and killing to generate the snap fires.
Actually you can squeeze another attack out of that. 1 fires and then combines it's snap with 2. I'd only do that with Easy to hit models though.