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View Full Version : eSorscha's Bon vs. eKaya's feat.



dkvoe
06-04-2012, 05:40 PM
Say a warpwolf, on eKaya's feat turn charges a bonded warjack like Beast09. If he fails to scrap Beast, and then is teleported back as a result of the feat is he stationary? Our group decided "no" because the teleport is still during the warpwolf's activation and the bond states at the end of the activation.

It wound up being irrelevant because Beast got scrapped but today I came across this thread... https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?89823-Sprint-Failed-charge

By the logic in that ruling it seems that the warpwolf in our situation, had he not scrapped Beast, would have been stationary. Thoughts?

Kommissar Golovko
06-04-2012, 09:18 PM
Yes it would have resulted in a stationary beast. Sorscha's bond's trigger is at the end of the attacking model's activation, same time as Kaya's teleportation condition in her feat. Once you declare the beast has ended the activation, stationary kicks in at the same time it is teleported back.

Uratoh
06-04-2012, 09:50 PM
Can't find the post of it, but the beast won't be stationary. It came up with Cankerwurm's abiliy to withdraw from battle at the end of his activation, since the active player's non-attack generating abilities go first, the beast/wurm moves, and then Sorscha's bond triggers...but since the subject is no longer in melee, it doesn't freeze em.

dkvoe
06-04-2012, 11:21 PM
Two opposing replies. Uratoh, your thinking is in line with the conclusion we reached but them timing mentioned in the linked thread makes me think the Kommisar may be correct.

vintersbastard
06-04-2012, 11:59 PM
Well, the teleport happens before the freezing, and since you recheck trigger conditions, the warpwolf won't be within the required distance anymore, so the bond doesn't go off.

Ramses0559
06-05-2012, 12:34 AM
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?77815-Cankerworm-and-eSorscha-Warjack-Bond&highlight=beast+cankerworm

No infernal response but people seem to agree that the cankerworm moves then gets stationary, so I would say that the same would apply here. Teleport then beast becomes stationary.

CrazyBlaine
06-09-2012, 07:35 AM
Errata

P. 244. APPENdIx A.
Add the following to the end of the second paragraph:
At any time two or more abilities are triggered at the same
time, such as ?attack hit? or ?end activation,? the active player
chooses the order in which abilities on his models resolve, then
the inactive player chooses the order in which abilities on his
models resolve.

Thus the active player would likely choose to use kaya's feat first leaving the warpwolf outside the effect of sorcha's feat

Kommissar Golovko
06-09-2012, 12:08 PM
Errata


Thus the active player would likely choose to use kaya's feat first leaving the warpwolf outside the effect of sorcha's feat

Nope. The trigger is ending activation. So while the model can teleport away, the model still ended activation within 2" of Sorscha's bonded jack and so the model becomes stationary after it is placed.

CountDomar
06-09-2012, 03:53 PM
Although I am a Khador player and would like it the other way I would have to agree that the Warpwolf was not made stationary. The Bond states that the enemy ends his activation and is within 2" of the bonded jack. The Warpwolf would end his activation but would be teleported more than the 2" away.

Just my 2 cents.

Dire Forum Troll
06-09-2012, 04:36 PM
Although I am a Khador player and would like it the other way I would have to agree that the Warpwolf was not made stationary. The Bond states that the enemy ends his activation and is within 2" of the bonded jack. The Warpwolf would end his activation but would be teleported more than the 2" away.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't know. I think eSorscha's bond is not a "while within" effect.

dkvoe
06-10-2012, 05:17 PM
I don't know. I think eSorscha's bond is not a "while within" effect.

It is "ends activation within two inches"

Alviaran
06-10-2012, 05:28 PM
Nope. The trigger is ending activation. So while the model can teleport away, the model still ended activation within 2" of Sorscha's bonded jack and so the model becomes stationary after it is placed.

I believe you recheck the triggers though when you go to have it occur. And since the Warpwolf is no longer ending his activation within the 2", the bond does not trigger.

Dire Forum Troll
06-10-2012, 05:54 PM
It is "ends activation within two inches"

I think it means model only have to be within 2" when it ends it's activation.
Since it ends it's activation before the teleportation happen, so it doesn't really matter where does it locate after the teleportation.

Just my 2 cents.

Ranhothep
06-11-2012, 01:29 AM
I would agree with the Kommissar. Because regardless of the order you apply the effects in, the trigger has allready happened. The Warpwolf ended it's activation within 2" so both effects go on the "stack" (some of you will know what I mean ;) ) Afterwards, you proceed to resolve the effects, but since both have allready triggered, it's irrelevant what order you apply them in.

Cloud-Gatherer
06-11-2012, 02:01 PM
I would agree with the Kommissar. Because regardless of the order you apply the effects in, the trigger has allready happened. The Warpwolf ended it's activation within 2" so both effects go on the "stack" (some of you will know what I mean ;) ) Afterwards, you proceed to resolve the effects, but since both have allready triggered, it's irrelevant what order you apply them in.

If that is true, what is the point of rechecking triggers to make sure they're still valid?

Ranhothep
06-11-2012, 02:42 PM
This might concern "while within" triggers for example. But ending your activation is a one-time event which happened when you were within 2" of the bonded jack.

Karl Eller
06-11-2012, 05:48 PM
If that is true, what is the point of rechecking triggers to make sure they're still valid?
The thing is, the paragraph about re-checking triggers is specifically in relation to an attack:

Some effects cause certain conditions of an attack, such as whether it hit or what models it boxed, to change during resolution. When resolving triggered effects, recheck trigger conditions as you resolve each ability. If a condition is no longer met, the effect does not resolve. Similarly, if an effect on one model causes a condition to change on another, effects triggered by that condition will resolve for each of those models.
And it then goes on to give an example of a Bloat Thrall being disabled by an attack (Step 11 of the main attack sequence).

I'm not sure if that paragraph applies to non-attack effects.

The Captain
06-12-2012, 07:12 AM
The thing is, the paragraph about re-checking triggers is specifically in relation to an attack:

And it then goes on to give an example of a Bloat Thrall being disabled by an attack (Step 11 of the main attack sequence).

I'm not sure if that paragraph applies to non-attack effects.

According to the Errata, it looks like it applies to non-attack effects too, since "end of activation" is used as an example:


At any time two or more abilities are triggered at the same
time, such as ?attack hit? or ?end activation,? the active player
chooses the order in which abilities on his models resolve, then
the inactive player chooses the order in which abilities on his
models resolve.

solkan
06-12-2012, 07:22 AM
Did the model spontaneously restart its activation? Did it somehow retroactively go from "ended its activation within 2"" to having ended its activation elsewhere?

If it did not, then there's nothing to recheck.

That's unlike the boxed-disabled-destroyed sequence where models change state and invalidate conditions all the time.

tuttleboy
06-12-2012, 09:10 AM
I'm with the teleported but still stationary group. Both abilities trigger at the same time, active player chooses effect (teleport) but the original condition for the bond to trigger was still met and nothing has actually changed that besides the fact that the stationary model is moved.

Karl Eller
06-12-2012, 04:09 PM
According to the Errata, it looks like it applies to non-attack effects too, since "end of activation" is used as an example:
The Errata modifies the 2nd paragraph, but it is the 3rd paragraph that talks about re-checking triggers. All the Errata says is that the active player chooses which order the effects happen (ie is it made stationary before or after it teleports).

solkan
06-12-2012, 06:23 PM
The Errata modifies the 2nd paragraph, but it is the 3rd paragraph that talks about re-checking triggers. All the Errata says is that the active player chooses which order the effects happen (ie is it made stationary before or after it teleports).

And what difference does it make if the triggers are reevaluated?

Trigger condition #1: 'ends activation within 2" of the the bonded warjack"
Trigger condition #2: 'at the end of the activation'.

The activation ended. If you resolve effect #2, the model gets placed somewhere else, and since it ended its activation within the appropriate distance, it then becomes stationary.
If you resolve effect #1, the model becomes stationary, and then when you resolve effect #2 the stationary model teleports.

The activation once. The fact that the effects are triggered and the model may continue doing things (like sprint) doesn't change that.
(See Sprint vs. the failed charge "activation ends immediately": https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?89823-Sprint-Failed-charge&p=1205274&viewfull=1#post1205274 )

Karl Eller
06-12-2012, 07:26 PM
And what difference does it make if the triggers are reevaluated?

Trigger condition #1: 'ends activation within 2" of the the bonded warjack"
Trigger condition #2: 'at the end of the activation'.

The activation ended. If you resolve effect #2, the model gets placed somewhere else, and since it ended its activation within the appropriate distance, it then becomes stationary.
If you resolve effect #1, the model becomes stationary, and then when you resolve effect #2 the stationary model teleports.

The activation once. The fact that the effects are triggered and the model may continue doing things (like sprint) doesn't change that.
(See Sprint vs. the failed charge "activation ends immediately": https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?89823-Sprint-Failed-charge&p=1205274&viewfull=1#post1205274 )
Yes, I agree that it'll get made stationary either way, my point to The Captain is that the rechecking of trigger conditions only applies to effects that trigger during the attack sequence, so it doesn't change anything in this situation.

Pixl
06-12-2012, 10:04 PM
It will become stationary because the effect is allready triggerd, I think people confuse TRIGGER with EXECUTION.
Something can be triggered at one time and then the effect happens at a later stage, it still means that the
effect is triggered and the effects of it will happen.

There are plenty of examples of this, like enliven that triggers on hit but the effect happens after the attack is
resolved. Granted, that is written in the rules for enliven on the vassals card but you can't expect every card
to have a explanation of every outcome that can be a result of that rule.

1. Warp wolf ends activation.
- Kayas feat triggers a teleportation.
- Sorchas bond triggers stationary.
2. Active player chooses what (if any) effects happends that are on HIS models. In this case teleport.
3. Opponent chooses what (if any) effects happens that are on his models. In this case stationary.
(as have been explained in above posts)

Yes, you can agrue with the fact that the warp wolf is NOT within 2" of Beast at the time but it is not
relevant. The effect TRIGGERS when he ends his activation within 2". Again, TRIGGER is not the same
thing as EXECUTION.

Vicomte Athos
06-12-2012, 10:29 PM
The problem you have is that an ability is not divided into parts like it is in M:TG. They are singular.

They way I see it is thus:

Warpwolf ends activation.
Active player checks to see if he has anything that triggers at end of activation.
-Teleport Wolf back
Inactive player checks to see if he has anything that triggers at end of activation.
-None. The wolf is not within 2".

Karl Eller
06-12-2012, 11:31 PM
The problem you have is that an ability is not divided into parts like it is in M:TG. They are singular.

They way I see it is thus:

Warpwolf ends activation.
Active player checks to see if he has anything that triggers at end of activation.
-Teleport Wolf back
Inactive player checks to see if he has anything that triggers at end of activation.
-None. The wolf is not within 2".
No, this is incorrect. You check to see what effects trigger at each trigger point (end activation, end movement, etc), and all these effects trigger at once. You only get to choose in which ORDER they happen (in this case, is the beast made stationary before or after teleporting).

Wishing
06-13-2012, 02:49 AM
Interesting question. I agree that it sounds like there are two possible interpretations.

1) Both abiltities trigger at the same time, and are resolved afterwards. The order of resolution is ultimately irrelevant in this example, since the WW will be affected by both abilities regardless of what order they are applied in.
2) The abilities trigger and resolve separately one after the other, meaning that the WW will have a chance to teleport away before being frozen.

I'd love to hear which interpretation is correct since the rules don't seem to address this issue specifically.

steelskin
06-13-2012, 05:29 PM
Based on this thread: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?9408-Admonition-and-Counter-Charge&p=248277&viewfull=1#post248277, I would think that eKaya's feat would move the warpwolf, then eSorcha's bond would no longer apply.

In the linked thread, a Bronzeback affected by Admonition is charged by an enemy model, with the enemy model ending movement in melee. It is ruled that the Bronzeback is allowed to choose to use Admonition to move out of melee, then check if its Counter Charge applies. Since it is not in melee (Admonition moved it out of melee), it is allowed to Counter Charge as long as it is still within 6" of the moving model.

Stating that both the feat and the bond trigger at the same time, and thus the warpwolf becomes stationary regardless of where it was placed, would imply Admonition and Counter Charge does not worked as ruled on. Applying a "simultaneous trigger" would mean the Bronzeback was engaged at the end of enemy movement, so the Counter Charge would not be relevant regardless of whether Admonition moves it out of melee.

Rather, based on the logic in the linked ruling, when eKaya's warpwolf ends its activation the active player has her feat place the warpwolf. Now eSorcha's bond triggers, and if the warpwolf is still within 2" of the 'jack it will be stationary.

Kommissar Golovko
06-13-2012, 05:55 PM
Ending activation only happens once. When the model ended its activation it was within 2" of the bonded jack. That's it. There is no delay anywhere that would allow for another interpretation nor is there any clause which requires the model to be within 2" up to the end of the player's activation for stationary effect to come in. The wording of eSorscha's bond is very precise. Doesn't matter if it can teleport or not because it can be teleported. But the trigger already means the model would still be stationary after being placed.

Ramses0559
06-14-2012, 01:58 AM
Kommissar has it. The fact that you recheck is irrelivent. Because you already ended your activation. You don't re-end it after your sprint move.

Wishing
06-14-2012, 04:47 AM
But doesn't that mean that the Bronzeback-Admonition thing also shouldn't work, where it has been ruled to do so?

Kommissar Golovko
06-14-2012, 05:31 AM
Admonition is different. Admonition is not about ending activation but ending movement. That is a totally different situation because you can have a lot of movement interactions so you have to check each point unlike ending activation which is a one time only event so you only have to check the situation at that point.

Lord Sessadore
06-14-2012, 06:40 AM
I think the reason Admonition-Counter Charge works is because being engaged does not mean Counter Charge doesn't trigger. Being engaged means you cannot make use of Counter Charge. So enemy model ends movement engaging you and is within 6". Admonition and Counter Charge both trigger. If you resolve CC first, it doesn't happen because you are engaged. If you resolve Admonition first and become unengaged, then when resolving CC you may make the charge because you are not engaged at that point.

For the bond and feat interaction here to work like that, Sorscha's bond would have to have wording that made the affected model become un-stationary if it ended up more than 2" away from the bonded jack. It does not have such wording, so rechecking triggers doesn't affect anything. If you recheck the trigger, the beast still ended its activation within 2" of the jack - the feat placement happens after "ending its activation".

Lanz
06-14-2012, 06:59 AM
I don't see anything in the turn sequence that would leave room for 'rechecking' the condition after both rules have triggered, and I don't see anything that suggests that being stationary would stop the place effect from Kaya's feat. Both rules trigger, and both go off, they resolve by active player's choosing. However, being stationary does not prevent being placed, so whether the beast goes stationary first or afterwards, the result is still the same; the beast will be teleported and become stationary. It will probably become stationary then get teleported.

elplagUe
06-14-2012, 09:27 AM
Ending activation only happens once. When the model ended its activation it was within 2" of the bonded jack. That's it. There is no delay anywhere that would allow for another interpretation nor is there any clause which requires the model to be within 2" up to the end of the player's activation for stationary effect to come in. The wording of eSorscha's bond is very precise. Doesn't matter if it can teleport or not because it can be teleported. But the trigger already means the model would still be stationary after being placed.

I'm not sure if I agree. Reason being, the two rules use different wording.

When a model ends its activation within 2" of the bonded warjack, it becomes stationary.

At the end of this models activation, etc.

If rule #2 states AT THE END, the activation has not yet ended, thus no bond would apply. Then again, I could be wrong. But logically, you don't say a scene happened when the movie ended, we say a scene happened at the end.

But, whatevs.

Kommissar Golovko
06-14-2012, 12:51 PM
What about "at the end"? It's still the end of the model's activation which is the also the trigger of Sorscha's bond. The model cannot be teleported before it's activation ends. It can only be teleported after the activation.

elplagUe
06-15-2012, 12:04 PM
I don't have all the cards here, as I'm at work. If something says at the end, it is therefore, by laws of language, not the end of the activation, it would be the final step prior to activation ending.

If it says when it ends, then by all means I agree with you.

It just depends on the cards, which I don't have handy.

Lord Sessadore
06-18-2012, 06:42 AM
I don't have all the cards here, as I'm at work. If something says at the end, it is therefore, by laws of language, not the end of the activation, it would be the final step prior to activation ending.

If it says when it ends, then by all means I agree with you.

It just depends on the cards, which I don't have handy.

Hmm.

Can someone check the timing Appendix in Prime/Primal? I'm sure it would show whether "end of activation" and "ends its activation" are different steps as far as resolution of abilities is concerned.

Matthaeus
06-18-2012, 08:25 AM
Note that IIRC, all such epic casters' bond precise "non-character warjack", which means Beast-09 cannot benefit from Sorscha's bond.

ForestZ
06-18-2012, 08:33 AM
Note that IIRC, all such epic casters' bond precise "non-character warjack", which means Beast-09 cannot benefit from Sorscha's bond.

Beast-09 has Affinity with Sorscha, which overrides that restriction.

juckto
06-18-2012, 02:08 PM
Did it somehow retroactively go from "ended its activation within 2"" to having ended its activation elsewhere?
This.

10char.

Taslon
06-19-2012, 08:21 AM
This.

10char.

Its definatly frozen. The wording is that When a enemy model ends its activation. So even if you have 30 effects that involve movemnt and the like, all will get resolved. Its not that it says while within 2in'sas it ends its activation. The trigger for the effect is that it ended its activation, within 2 inches. So it would teleport and get iced.

Valander
06-19-2012, 10:42 AM
Its definatly frozen. The wording is that When a enemy model ends its activation. So even if you have 30 effects that involve movemnt and the like, all will get resolved. Its not that it says while within 2in'sas it ends its activation. The trigger for the effect is that it ended its activation, within 2 inches. So it would teleport and get iced.
This is correct.

Taken from an older thread with a similar situation with the Cankerworm:


So first you end Cankerworm's activation within 2" of a warjack Bonded to eSorscha. Then you resolve the post-activation move. Then you check the trigger for eSorscha's bond. Did Cankerworm end its activation within 2" of the Bonded warjack? The answer is still "yes", so you then resolve the Bond effect.

This logic is sound.

Locking because this one has gotten pretty big. If you have remaining questions, please ask concisely in a new thread.