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DieselDM
07-25-2012, 10:51 AM
I was trying to figure out the order of operations for Strafe and I found conflicting answers, both from Infernals.

This one implies you declare all the targets first, before you roll:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?18393-Straife-Allocation&p=275723&viewfull=1#post275723

And this one implies you declare targets as you make the shots:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?81095-Quick-Strafe-clarification&p=1097258&viewfull=1#post1097258

Which is it?

quindraco
07-25-2012, 11:16 AM
I was trying to figure out the order of operations for Strafe and I found conflicting answers, both from Infernals.

This one implies you declare all the targets first, before you roll:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?18393-Straife-Allocation&p=275723&viewfull=1#post275723

And this one implies you declare targets as you make the shots:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?81095-Quick-Strafe-clarification&p=1097258&viewfull=1#post1097258

Which is it?

Valander is correct. When two Infernal posts conflict, the most current one trumps. On top of this, I know how simultaneous attacks work, and Valander's post looks accurate (as in, he is explaining the rule, not changing it). Thirdly, TUM and Valander both upgraded from forumite to Infernal, but only Valander dated his sig, so it's impossible to know for sure which of TUM's posts are infernal posts without a lot of legwork.

Captain Smash
07-25-2012, 12:47 PM
It seems the answers are kinda sketchy toward the question "do you have to declare where all the attacks are going when # of attacks are determined?"

My gut says YES, if are the attacks are simultaneous then you must allocate them before rolling any of them. To me it makes no sense to be able to add an extra "simultaneous" attack to a model after the first one missed, when technically there is NO first attack because they are all at the same time. For ease of playing the game you simply roll them one after the other because it is difficult to roll them all at the same time.

Just my 2 cents on how I would rule it at an event.

vintersbastard
07-25-2012, 04:09 PM
It seems the answers are kinda sketchy toward the question "do you have to declare where all the attacks are going when # of attacks are determined?"

How is Valander's ruling (with the follow-up from Macallan) sketchy? You determine attack and damage roll for one attack before you declare the target of the next one.

quindraco
07-25-2012, 06:50 PM
How is Valander's ruling (with the follow-up from Macallan) sketchy? You determine attack and damage roll for one attack before you declare the target of the next one.

Indeed, but there has always been mass confusion about this - in fact, the old Backswing was misplayed for a long time by a lot of people due to this widespread myth. Every simultaneous attack in the game except for a spray works like this:

1) Do the first attack as if it were sequential; stop right after the target suffers damage.
2) If there are attacks remaining, goto 1.
3) If there are no attacks remaining, resolve all attacks now, simultaneously (this is when things like Tough happen).

This is why you don't declare your attacks up front with Strafe - it's just not how simul attacks work. The only oddball, sprays, has you roll all hits before any damage rolls, which is important for boosting but has no interaction with declaring targets.

In any case, Valander is correct by definition, so if Captain Smash ran an event with a different ruling, he'd be applying TO override, and his tourney would not be 'legal' (although of course he can run one that way if he likes, PP does not employ tourney police).

Captain Smash
07-25-2012, 10:25 PM
Actually Quindraco you are misinformed about what constitutes a 'legal' tourney, making rulings based on what is written in the rulebook and current errata (not infernal rulings) is exactly what PG are supposed to do. The SR packet is further guidelines for running a tournament. Moving on.

If you go to Appendix A:Timing and proceed thru the steps appropriately at step 3 you will find

"Declare the attack and it's target."

Strafe is a single attack that attacks multiple targets so at this step you would need to determine what that model or models are targeted.

Also your step 1 is wrong, you do not stop right after target suffers damage, you "completely resolve all attack rolls the damage rolls" and then all targets "suffer" damage (Damage Application step 11) at the same time.

Stevo
07-25-2012, 10:58 PM
I think TUM and Valander are essentially saying the same thing. Valander's is saying that you don't apply damage until all shots have been handed out and resolved. That's pretty much what TUM's posting says, too.

Without derailing the thread, I'd like to add that there is no "TO override". TO's have the right to be wrong in any ruling they make, as long as those rulings are consistent. No one is perfect, mistakes will be made, but the TO is the final word in any given tournament, right or wrong.

quindraco
07-26-2012, 04:07 AM
I think TUM and Valander are essentially saying the same thing. Valander's is saying that you don't apply damage until all shots have been handed out and resolved. That's pretty much what TUM's posting says, too.

Without derailing the thread, I'd like to add that there is no "TO override". TO's have the right to be wrong in any ruling they make, as long as those rulings are consistent. No one is perfect, mistakes will be made, but the TO is the final word in any given tournament, right or wrong.

This seems to contradict Valander's recent post about base sizes, in which he declared that a TO allowing players to field large-based models on 60 mm bases would not be running a 'legal' tournament, but I am hardly an expert on PP's policy on what constitutes an official tourney or not. Certainly, as you and I have both said, a TO can run a tourney any way they like (that's what I meant by TO override), with any house rules they like. My point is that Smash is violating the RAW.

To Smash: Infernals are more correct than the rulebook, and more correct than the errata. If Valander and the rulebook do contradict each other, Valander wins. I'm not sure why you think otherwise, but here is a link to an official forum post making their rulings official: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?1767-Welcome-to-the-Rules-Forum&p=24429&viewfull=1#post24429

DieselDM
07-26-2012, 04:58 AM
We have gotten off-topic here.

I just want to know if you have to declare all your attacks first or not.

So is it:

1) Roll d6 for number of attacks
2) Declare an attack, roll attack and damage
3) Repeat 2 for each of the d6 shots
4) Resolve damage

or:

1) Roll d6 for number of attacks
2) Declare all attacks
3) Roll attack and damage
4) Repeat 3 for each declared attack
5) Resolve damage

Valander's post (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?81095-Quick-Strafe-clarification&p=1097258&viewfull=1#post1097258), which Macallan also checked, says that it is the first set of steps, so unless someone has a more recent infernal ruling, that must be how it is.

poeticruse
07-26-2012, 05:14 AM
1) Roll d6 for number of attacks
2) Declare an attack, roll attack and damage
3) Repeat 2 for each of the d6 shots
4) Resolve damage


This one.

As far as tournaments and incorrect or house rules, that is a topic for Privateer Press, their Press Gang and/or other volunteer tournament organizers. The infernal team is about getting the best, most correct interpretation of the rules out in the world. To help players of the game, casual, serious, or top-level competitive, keep all playing the same game.

We are not here to enforce that interpretation, nor is it clear that we have any mechanism to do so. There's no such 'official' thing as TO Override, and while Quindraco is fond of the 'correct by definition', we are also human and flawed by composition.

DieselDM
07-26-2012, 07:00 AM
Thanks for the ruling. That makes Strafe much more useful than I initially thought.