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pylfer
09-04-2012, 08:51 AM
Hey guys, this may be a silly question but I was wondering if your opponent asks for you to measure your casters control range if you are required to do so?

I thought that it was much like the whole melee attack range thing where you just have to guess if you'll be taking free strikes or not, only that in the case of something like "The Old Witch" using her feat, you would wait until a unit finished their movement before determining whether they would be taking the POW14 in her control range.


So, do we have to have our control range measured out at all times in order for the enemy to skirt around the edges of it, or do we just sit back and watch them squirm that they have to eye-ball it?

KujakuDM
09-04-2012, 08:55 AM
You do not have to measure it out for your opponent. However, should you measure it you must share it with your opponent. Also you can do it for any time and for any reason.

SageofLodoss
09-04-2012, 09:09 AM
Hey guys, this may be a silly question but I was wondering if your opponent asks for you to measure your casters control range if you are required to do so?

I thought that it was much like the whole melee attack range thing where you just have to guess if you'll be taking free strikes or not, only that in the case of something like "The Old Witch" using her feat, you would wait until a unit finished their movement before determining whether they would be taking the POW14 in her control range.


So, do we have to have our control range measured out at all times in order for the enemy to skirt around the edges of it, or do we just sit back and watch them squirm that they have to eye-ball it?

The rules themselves do not say you must measure your control range if asked. It may, however, be an issue of tact and sportsmanship that varies from meta to meta and from group to group. The rules don't really cover that sort of thing, so you should work it out with your group on how you wish to do things. But as written, there is not a requirement for you to do so, though if you measure your control area for any reason on your own your opponent can ask for details of that last measurement, such as who was in your last sweep of your control area, etc.

solkan
09-04-2012, 09:18 AM
Hey guys, this may be a silly question but I was wondering if your opponent asks for you to measure your casters control range if you are required to do so?


So, do we have to have our control range measured out at all times in order for the enemy to skirt around the edges of it, or do we just sit back and watch them squirm that they have to eye-ball it?

I would like to point out that you've managed to ask two questions which have completely different answers, because the rules differentiate between the two cases.

Yes, in some cases you do absolutely have to measure your control area, so that you and your opponent know which models are affected. If an effect says something like "All models currently within the control area take damage" or "All enemy models currently within the control area suffer ______" that's mandatory, neither you nor your opponent has a choice in the matter, you have to measure in that case to determine which models are affected.

No, in other cases you do not have to measure your control area in advance, and instead you adjust the model's or models' position(s) after committing to the action. The measurement is still mandatory, but the timing of when the measurement is required changes. For the sake of everyone involved, see Prime MK II, page 75, Measuring Control Areas.

But just "Because your opponent asked" is not a compelling reason which would require you to measure your control area.

pylfer
09-04-2012, 09:34 AM
I would like to point out that you've managed to ask two questions which have completely different answers, because the rules differentiate between the two cases.

Yes, in some cases you do absolutely have to measure your control area, so that you and your opponent know which models are affected. If an effect says something like "All models currently within the control area take damage" or "All enemy models currently within the control area suffer ______" that's mandatory, neither you nor your opponent has a choice in the matter, you have to measure in that case to determine which models are affected.

No, in other cases you do not have to measure your control area in advance, and instead you adjust the model's or models' position(s) after committing to the action. The measurement is still mandatory, but the timing of when the measurement is required changes. For the sake of everyone involved, see Prime MK II, page 75, Measuring Control Areas.

But just "Because your opponent asked" is not a compelling reason which would require you to measure your control area.

Ok, well with the witch and other casters like Harby, it's models that end their movement within the Control Range, or closer to the caster than they were before. So in a situation like that if everything is out of the feat range, and they don't know where the feat radius begins, do you need to measure for your opponent to know where it's safe to go, or is it just up to best judgement and premeasuring from their caster?

SpiderBite
09-04-2012, 09:44 AM
they don't know where the feat radius begins, do you need to measure for your opponent to know where it's safe to go, or is it just up to best judgement and premeasuring from their caster?

You (being the one with the Harbinger/Old Witch) do not premeasure. You measure after they move.
Your opponent (the victim) has to do his best to figure out your CTRL area.

Murkhadh
09-04-2012, 10:16 AM
The rules themselves do not say you must measure your control range if asked. It may, however, be an issue of tact and sportsmanship that varies from meta to meta and from group to group. The rules don't really cover that sort of thing, so you should work it out with your group on how you wish to do things. But as written, there is not a requirement for you to do so, though if you measure your control area for any reason on your own your opponent can ask for details of that last measurement, such as who was in your last sweep of your control area, etc.

Its not an issue of tact and sportmanship, right in prime it tells you that you do NOT have to and shouldn't measure your control range for your opponent. It clearly states that.

beatdown
09-04-2012, 10:29 AM
You (being the one with the Harbinger/Old Witch) do not premeasure. You measure after they move.
Your opponent (the victim) has to do his best to figure out your CTRL area.

I thought it has been decided that with these control area feats you must measure if a model looks to be in range. Before the model moves and it is not at the controller of the feats option as it is not a may effect

DrFish
09-04-2012, 10:43 AM
I thought it has been decided that with these control area feats you must measure if a model looks to be in range. Before the model moves and it is not at the controller of the feats option as it is not a may effect

Depends on the feat. If the feat limits the actions that those affected can do then yeah you'd have to measure (though you could just measure up to the model instead of the entire control range) as it is relevant at the start of that models activation. If the feats effect requires a move into of some sort than the issue of sportsmanship arises.

The easiest way to solve the issue is to sack up and comit to your movements and actions instead of trying to game your opponent for information you shouldn't be privy to.

SpiderBite
09-04-2012, 10:47 AM
I thought it has been decided that with these control area feats you must measure if a model looks to be in range. Before the model moves and it is not at the controller of the feats option as it is not a may effect

I'll have to disagree, and that seems a tad ridiculous as Harbinger's feat does not apply until Movement has ended.

For the first part of OldWitch's feat specifically, yes. If you wish to run/charge/perform a *Attack, your opponent checks to see if you're in range. If you're just advancing, no measuring required until you end your movement.

Now, things like Inhospitable Ground. . .
as much as I dislike this, it's supposed to work like the following:
personA makes their full declared movement. InhospitableGroundPlayer then measures CTRL and you backtrack the model to the furthest point it could have moved.

Zakmahr
09-04-2012, 11:06 AM
So in a situation like that if everything is out of the feat range, and they don't know where the feat radius begins, do you need to measure for your opponent to know where it's safe to go, or is it just up to best judgement and premeasuring from their caster?

I do not think you can measure your opponent's caster control range. You can only measure your own. As Solkan pointed out there are times where it is required and this information must be shared.

In friendly games, I've had no problems asking my opponent whether or not one of my models is within his caster's control area. But strictly speaking, your opponent is under no obligation to let you know unless it is relevent to the situation (feats, etc.)

pylfer
09-04-2012, 11:45 AM
My biggest concern is that I'm using feats like this in order to stop advancement towards my units, so that's all good and fair, however, I find that if my control range is being measured for the majority of my turn than my opponent will just skirt to the very edge of my control (and then usually unload on me with gun fire cause yeah). I feel that these feats are to some degree negated when your opponent knows exactly where to end their movement without being damaged.

I feel that after declaring a feat, you can measure to see what is or what is covered for yourself. Your opponent can glean what information that he/she can from this and then make decisions accordingly. If he advances his units in the CTRL (or at least has a few in the front that are in) that's part of the game. I come back to the point about melee attack ranges, at no point am I allowed to measure my opponents range to determine if I'm going to take a free strike moving passed them and they do not have to listen to me if I ask them to measure.

Zakmahr
09-04-2012, 11:51 AM
I come back to the point about melee attack ranges, at no point am I allowed to measure my opponents range to determine if I'm going to take a free strike moving passed them and they do not have to listen to me if I ask them to measure.

You are correct in that you cannot your opponent's melee range to determine whether or not you'll take a free strike. However, you can measure you own model's melee range and usually make that determination...

TheUnknownMercenary
09-04-2012, 12:12 PM
You check when you need to or when you want to.

For the Witch's feat, you would check at these times:

First portion of her feat:

When opponent decides that one or more of his models are going to run, charge or make a special attack. You would measure to see if the models are in the control area. You measure to either the max distance of the control area or to the model in question (or farthest model if it a unit that is activating) whichever is the closest.

Second portion of her feat:

After a model/unit finishes it's movement. Yes you check after the unit finishes it's movement.

These are the times that you need to know if an enemy model is effected by the feat and when you need to check.

ForestZ
09-04-2012, 12:22 PM
You check when you need to or when you want to.

For the Witch's feat, you would check at these times:

First portion of her feat:

When opponent decides that one or more of his models are going to run, charge or make a special attack. You would measure to see if the models are in the control area. You measure to either the max distance of the control area or to the model in question (or farthest model if it a unit that is activating) whichever is the closest.


Is there some kind of common sense limit on this? If a Old Witch is 6" off her deployment zone, must I measure to models still in his deployment zone, which is obviously out of range? If not, at what point does this common sense intuition about which models are in or out stop and you're forced to measure? What if both players disagree?

I realize this may come down to a sportsmanship issue, but it seems like the rules on this one can be ambiguous where they really shouldn't be, if left to the judgement of two opponents to eyeball a distance. Either player could use this to game the measurements, the OW player by saying it seems obvious a model is too far away in order to avoid being forced to measure, and the opponent claiming it seems obvious the model is close enough in order to force the OW player to measure. In a game with such clear rules, the inherent ambiguity of this rankles me.

Crate123
09-04-2012, 12:36 PM
Is there some kind of common sense limit on this? If a Old Witch is 6" off her deployment zone, must I measure to models still in his deployment zone, which is obviously out of range? If not, at what point does this common sense intuition about which models are in or out stop and you're forced to measure? What if both players disagree?

I realize this may come down to a sportsmanship issue, but it seems like the rules on this one can be ambiguous where they really shouldn't be, if left to the judgement of two opponents to eyeball a distance. Either player could use this to game the measurements, the OW player by saying it seems obvious a model is too far away in order to avoid being forced to measure, and the opponent claiming it seems obvious the model is close enough in order to force the OW player to measure. In a game with such clear rules, the inherent ambiguity of this rankles me.

Its 100% a sportsmanship issue, there are no clear rules abou this. When you play a casual game you have to work it out with your opponent so you both have a good time, at a tournament you can call over the TO if you are afraid that your opponent is abusing this part of the rules.
Its really difficult to make a rules regarding common sense.

poeticruse
09-04-2012, 12:49 PM
Is there some kind of common sense limit on this? If a Old Witch is 6" off her deployment zone, must I measure to models still in his deployment zone, which is obviously out of range? If not, at what point does this common sense intuition about which models are in or out stop and you're forced to measure? What if both players disagree?

Yes, there is a common sense limit.

No, we cannot tell you where that limit is. If it's among friends, decide for yourselves. If it's in a tournament, the judges decide when one party is being unsportsmanlike.

There is a limit to what the rules can tell you.

ForestZ
09-04-2012, 01:22 PM
Fair enough, thanks for the reply!