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View Full Version : Viktor Pendrake, Faction, Ally Rule, Mercenaries?



Ger
09-06-2012, 09:44 AM
Main question "If fielded in a Highborn army what faction tags does Viktor Pendrake have?". Clarifying why I'm asking next. This issue is a pretty nasty RAW vs RAI vs How it's being played.


I was looking over Viktor's faction tags and got a bit confused by what factions he counts as, where, and why.


Viktor Pendrake [Cygnar Ally Minion Character Solo].
Minion rule - This model works for Circle and Trollbloods.

Now here is how I understand Pendrake
Fielded in a Circle, Trollblood, Minion, or Cygnar army: Is Cygnar and Minion. Thus "Friendly Faction" with either Cygnar or Minion models.
The minion rule allows him to be fielded in those armies as a Minion and the faction tags indicate the factions he can run in baseline. Minion Pacts should specify his inclusion specifically but I cannot cross reference those rules right now. Regardless his faction tags should not be modified by his inclusion in any of these armies. Thus a Trollblood army fielded Viktor teamed up with a Cygnar army would still be Friendly Faction to the Cygnar Armies Cygnar models.

My expectation for how Viktor works in a Mercenary Army is that he would be Mercenary and Minion. The Cygnar faction tag being dropped.


Mercenaries also gain access to Viktor but we do so via a different method. The Ally rule is how we gain access. The Ally rule does not appear in Primal. It appears on page 80 of Prime and does not reference Minions.


Page 80 Prime Allies
Allies are Faction models that will work for mercenary contracts that specify they can include models that will work for the ally's faction. Allies are Mercenary models when included in a Mercenary army.

Cross referencing Forces of Warmachine: Mercenary and Wrath I found no further modification to this rule. I have not located errata to this rule. Looking for this issue via search I did my specific question. I did find a great deal of people saying "Ally replaces Faction with Mercenaries". This is not however, what this rule says as written.

As written issue 1: This rule says "Faction models" but Mercenaries are considered a Faction. In fact the defining of "faction" on page 29 clearly indicates Mercenaries as a faction. My issue is that the common sentiment and slang is to refer to "Cygnar, Menoth, Khador, Cryx, Retribution" as the "factions" of Warmachine and mercenaries as being something else. This usage of the term fits the common sentiment.
However, by the way the book defines faction this sentence could say "Allies are models that will work for mercenary contracts that specify they can include models that will work for the ally's faction" and RAW be the same thing.

Saying Allies are Faction models does not define anything but appears to be trying to.



As written issue 2: The Ally rules do not have anything about replacing or removing a faction tag in them. Again common sentiment and rulings are that it does, but the rule says nothing about that. They only indicate that a when fielded in a Mercenary army the models are Mercenary models.


As written issue 2 is the important bit for my main question. I'm going to dig deeper into this issue.

Let's compare to the rules of "The Highborn Covenant" a Mercenary Contract detailed on page 20 of Forces of Warmachine: Mercenaries.

Page 20. FoW: Mercenaries. Excerpt from Highborn Covenant's Army Composition section. Second bullet point.
The army can also include one non-character Arcane Tempest Gun Mage unit or Long Gunner unit. This unit is considered to be a friendly Mercenary unit instead of a Cygnar unit and can include attachments.

Given I have found no further book or card detail on Ally rules I must compare this to the rule on page 80 of prime alone. There is a clear difference. "Instead of" is in this rule but not the Ally rules. Due to "Instead of" we are clearly instructed to remove the Cygnar faction tag and add the Mercenary faction tag when fielding a Long Gunner unit in a Highborn army.


The next question is "Can a model have multiple factions". I have not located or found any rule restricting this. As an example: Viktor Pendrake in a Trollblood army should be both Minion and Cygnar faction and count as friendly faction to any Minion or Cygnar models.
Mercenaries in particular regularly interact with multiple faction types. Nyss Hunters are Mercenary Minions that appear under the Mercenary gallery. Alten Ashly, Gudrun the Wanderer and more are Minion Mercenaries and appear under the Hordes gallery. These examples are all things deployed by standard faction tags. (Which is also why Viktor Pendrake can be fielded by Cygnar).
In addition Mercenaries have access to Lesser Warlocks. Wrong Eye and Snapjaw are "Mercenary Minions". Due to the way battlegroups work Mercenaries can further field a Bull Snapper under Wrong Eye's control. Fielding the Bull snapper is reliant on Wrong Eye still counting as a Minion. The Bull Snapper's faction is not modified and is thus it's default "Minion". This is where "Friendly Faction" buffs come in and make things complicated. Let's assume a Damiano army in Four Star Syndicate fielding Wrongeye with a Bull Snapper.
Captain Damiano's [Mercenary Steelhead Warcaster] feat Conquest specifies "friendly Faction models". Wrong Eye and Snapjaw are mercenaries and gain the effect of this feat. The Bull Snapper does not share "Mercenary" as a faction with Damiano and is thus not affected by the feat.
Bull Snapper has the "Spiny Growth" animus (referencing Carnivean in Primal for it). Spiny Growth is "target friendly Faction model". Thus the Bull Snapper can only be forced to use his Animus on Minion models and cannot use it on Damiano. It can however use "Spiny Growth on say Alten Ashley because they are both Minion faction.
Wrong Eye as Bull Snapper's controlling warlock can cast it's Animus as a spell. Doing so has the same "target friendly faction model" but Wrong Eye is also a Mercenary which is a faction he shares with Damiano. Wrong Eye can thus cast it on Damiano. He can also cast it on Minions.

A very plausible game scenario reliant on a model being both factions. Damiano has feat up and has gained Spiny Growth from Wrong Eye as a result of both being Mercenaries. Wrong Eye is gaining the benefit of Damiano's Feat and a Spiny Growth cast by Bull Snapper. Bull Snapper has Spiny Growth cast by Wrong Eye on him but is not gaining Damiano's feat.



So what's the problem?
Clearly a model can be multiple factions. Further, RAW Ally does not appear to remove a faction tag and only adds one. It lacks key wording to do that.

Thus Viktor Pendrake when fielded in a Mercenary Highborn Army should be [Cygnar Ally Minion Mercenary Character Solo].
This would also mean that Constance Blaize when fielded in a Mercenary Highborn Army is a [Cygnar Ally Mercenary Marrowan Warcaster]

However, this is not how Ally has been treated RAI. In fact my above conclusion on what the RAW states and why makes a giant mess. Constance Blaize specifically may have fallout in regards to her battlegroup. Any impact on how battlegroups of multiple faction models works would also affect Lesser Warlock in a major way. A Mercenary Warbeast that can be included in a Farrow battlegroup would be legal in Thornfall.


Now presently, in a Mercenary Highborn list, Constance Blaize is considered to become [Mercenary Ally Marrowan Warcaster]. This is considered to be a result of the Ally rules. If this is the RAI method it causes an issue with someone like Viktor.

If the ally rules merely replaces Cygnar with Mercenaries: Viktor Pendrake becomes [Mercenary Ally Minion Character Solo].
If the ally rules replace all other faction tags with Mercenaries: Viktor Pendrake becomes [Mercenary Ally Character Solo].

Viktor still being a minion in a Mercenary army is what is at stake for him and Highborn lists personally. As I've indicated above this does change things. Spiny Growth is a working example. If Viktor is a Minion Bull Snapper can cast Spiny Growth on him. If Viktor is not a minion only Wrong Eye can do it.

Again if dual faction tags are not allowed for some reason that will chain and impact something else.


------------------
Summary
Viktor Pendrake becomes one of the following in Highborn.
If the ally rules add Mercenary to the list of factions: Viktor Pendrake becomes [Cygnar Ally Minion Mercenary Character Solo].
If the ally rules merely replaces Cygnar with Mercenaries: Viktor Pendrake becomes [Mercenary Ally Minion Character Solo].
If the ally rules replace all other faction tags with Mercenaries: Viktor Pendrake becomes [Mercenary Ally Character Solo].


My conclusion, based on current RAW, is that Ally should only add a faction tag. I see no reason it should remove one or a model would stop counting for as it's previous faction.


This seemed like it would be a simple question. Looking into it just made it complex. There is a lot of potential fallout depending on how this goes. The "Why" is pretty key here in regards to fallout. By my understanding my RAW interpretation is accurately based on how other rules work. If I am wrong on this because of in-accuracy on those rules some other currently played rule will be impacted.

So yeah...If fielded in a Highborn army what faction tags does Viktor Pendrake have?

Rotfell
09-06-2012, 11:32 AM
The answer is quite simple: Pendrake don't work for Highborn, since he is not a Mercenary, but a Minion. The Highborn contract allows any Mercenary that works for Cygnar, Minions are not included and Pendrake does not have a Mercernary-tag or the Mercernary-rule.

The ally-rule just allows him to be in a Cygnar army and be treated as a Cygnar model. That rule does not make him a Mercenary and he does not "work" for Cygnar (since ally isn't "working for").

Ger
09-06-2012, 12:21 PM
The Ally rule has nothing to do with making him Cygnar. You are thinking of "-partisan". Eyriss for example is a Retribution Partisan.


Prime MKII page 206. Eiyrss, Mage Hunter of IOS [Mercenary Character Solo]
Retribution Partisan - When included in a Retribution army, this model is a Retribution model instead of a Mercenary model.

Partisan is a very different rule and works to take a Mercenary into another faction as a Faction model.

The Ally rule is copied in my post above. All Allies clearly work for Mercenary Contracts that allow Mercenaries that work for their Faction. They also clearly gain Mercenary faction when played using the Ally rule.
"Contract allows mercenaries of [Faction type]" is the requirement and the ability to run that model as a mercenary is the benefit.

An example: Kayazy Eliminators are "Khador Allies". As Allies they require a contract to allow the use of "Mercenaries that work for Khador". Four Star Syndicate allows Mercenaries that work for Khador. Four Star meets the requirement and thus gains the benefit of being able to run Kayazy as allies.

Partisan again highlights the wording issue as it has "instead of" to switch the faction tag. In addition it is extremely clear which two factions are involved in the switch. In contrast the Ally rule isn't clear. (Maybe I'm missing something, but I was digging) Thus I am very unclear on what happens to the faction tags when Ally is being used. Gaining Mercenary is the only clear part.

solkan
09-06-2012, 12:25 PM
Edit: Previous post retracted.

Looking at the whole paragraph on page 80, now I don't understand what the question is.

"Allies are Mercenary models when included in a Mercenary army."

He's listed as Cygnar Ally Minion Character solo.

"Allies are Faction models that will work for mercenary contracts that specify they can include models that will work for the ally's faction."

Does your mercenary contract specify that it can include models that will work for Cygnar?

If so, Vektor Pendrake, as a Cygnar Ally model, can be included in that list. His "tags" remain unchanged, and the answer to any question of "Is this model a Mercenary model?" are answered by "Yes, see the Ally rule" in addition to whatever answers you derive from looking at the words on unit listing.

Compare that to the listing for the Cephalyx:
Cryx Ally Unit
but it has the rule Selective:

This unit can only be included in mercenary contract armies that list Cephalyx as possible members.
Why does that rule exist? The Cephalyx units include the Selective rule to prevent them from being taken by every single mercenary contract that will accept Cryx models, because that is what the Ally designation would otherwise do.

Ger
09-06-2012, 12:34 PM
The rule that you quoted from page 80 does NOT create Mercenary tags. If anything, because Viktor Pendrake does not have the Mercenary tag, page 80 would not even apply to him.

On the other hand, it should be fairly obvious that "Ally Minion" is supposed to work in an equivalent manner so that Viktor Pendrake is a Cygnar Faction model in Cygnar armies, and a Minion model in Minion or other Hordes armies.
"Allies are Mercenaries when included in a Mercenary Army"
That explicitly adds "Mercenary Faction". Went back and did a slow compare. I quoted the rule correctly. It's only two sentences. The third sentence in parentheses isn't part of the rule but a reference to FOW: Mercs as containing contract rules.

The Ally rule does not look for or require the "Mercenary" faction tag on the model with Ally. In fact it wants to do the opposite. Take a model that does not have it and allow it's use as Faction Friendly in a Mercenary army.

Assuming Viktor Pendrake did not have the Ally tag he would still be a legal Cygnar Minion model and able to run in both factions as friendly faction.


I am getting very confused by these claims that Ally does not apply because the model is not already a mercenary.

Bishop84
09-06-2012, 12:41 PM
The answer is quite simple: Pendrake don't work for Highborn, since he is not a Mercenary, but a Minion. The Highborn contract allows any Mercenary that works for Cygnar, Minions are not included and Pendrake does not have a Mercernary-tag or the Mercernary-rule.

The ally-rule just allows him to be in a Cygnar army and be treated as a Cygnar model. That rule does not make him a Mercenary and he does not "work" for Cygnar (since ally isn't "working for").

Um... what?


Page 80 Prime Allies
Allies are Faction models that will work for mercenary contracts that specify they can include models that will work for the ally's faction. Allies are Mercenary models when included in a Mercenary army.

It says right there he can be included in any mercenary contract that specifies his faction. If the ally rule didn't allow them to be used in merc contracts, what would be the point of Ally on Precursor Knights and Constance?

vintersbastard
09-06-2012, 01:20 PM
This would also mean that Constance Blaize when fielded in a Mercenary Highborn Army is a [Cygnar Ally Mercenary Marrowan Warcaster]

However, this is not how Ally has been treated RAI. In fact my above conclusion on what the RAW states and why makes a giant mess. Constance Blaize specifically may have fallout in regards to her battlegroup.
You overlooked this part in Prime (p. 83):
"If the only warcasters in an army are mercenaries, only mercenary models can be included in the army. (...) a mercenary warcaster or 'jack marshal can control and reactivate only mercenary warjacks."

So, regardles of whether Constanze may or may not retain the Cygnaran designation, her battlegroup's faction is clearly defined.



Any impact on how battlegroups of multiple faction models works would also affect Lesser Warlock in a major way. A Mercenary Warbeast that can be included in a Farrow battlegroup would be legal in Thornfall.
Are there any mercenary warbeasts that are not also minions? I'm not really seeing the point to your question here?

Ger
09-06-2012, 02:02 PM
You overlooked this part in Prime (p. 83):
"If the only warcasters in an army are mercenaries, only mercenary models can be included in the army. (...) a mercenary warcaster or 'jack marshal can control and reactivate only mercenary warjacks.

So, regardles of whether Constanze may or may not retain the Cygnaran designation, her battlegroup's faction is clearly defined."

Nope. I wasn't looking to figure out Constance so I have not reviewed those rules. Unless my Viktor question goes the wrong way I don't intend to. When there is a game situation where someone has two faction tags I'll worry about it. I called it fallout and pointed at it merely to indicate how the current assumption on Ally rules is tied to other presently played rulings.

I can see your point and will make sure I re-read that section if it becomes relevant. At the moment clarity on how Ally actually interacts with what Faction the model is comes first.




Are there any mercenary warbeasts that are not also minions? I'm not really seeing the point to your question here?

Nope. Speculating on unreleased model rule interactions. I have no reason to believe there will be a situation with a Warbeast that is only a Mercenary. Let alone one that also happened to be a farrow. I was being excessive in my detail. (Okay maybe a league model)

I see a large mistake in my data presentation here too. "A Mercenary Warbeast that can be included in a Farrow battlegroup would be legal in Thornfall." is not a concern. The first sentence quoted "Any impact on how battlegroups of multiple faction models works would also affect Lesser Warlock in a major way." remains true. The double faction status allows, for example, Rorsh to have a Mercenary Minion Farrow battlegroup.

At least by my understanding. I have his card in my car so I shall have to review it when I get the chance.

solkan
09-06-2012, 02:33 PM
I am getting very confused by these claims that Ally does not apply because the model is not already a mercenary.

You missed the edit where I realized I was wrong, retracted, and then realized that you're trying to do way too much work compared to what the rules say.

As far as I can tell, it would have been simpler to ask whether it would make any difference if page 80 said:

Allies are Faction models that will work for mercenary contracts that specify they can include models that will work for the ally's faction. Allies are Mercenary (instead of that Faction) models when included in a Mercenary army.
(The words that are totally not in the rules in red.)
or "Is Viktor Pendrake supposed to be a Cygnar Mercenary when included in a Mercenary force, or is he just Mercenary in that situation?"

poeticruse
09-06-2012, 02:43 PM
I'm sorry; I read every post in the rules forums, from reading the OP I'm uncertain of what the concise question is here.

Is solkan's restatement of the central question accurate, OP?

vintersbastard
09-06-2012, 03:00 PM
Nope. Speculating on unreleased model rule interactions. I have no reason to believe there will be a situation with a Warbeast that is only a Mercenary. Let alone one that also happened to be a farrow. I was being excessive in my detail. (Okay maybe a league model)
Well, I was under the impression that the Infernals don't deal in questions on hypothetical rule interactions; and I try to avoid it, as well. If an interaction is not possible within the existing rules (and may well never be), there's no reason to deal with it.



I see a large mistake in my data presentation here too. "A Mercenary Warbeast that can be included in a Farrow battlegroup would be legal in Thornfall." is not a concern. The first sentence quoted "Any impact on how battlegroups of multiple faction models works would also affect Lesser Warlock in a major way." remains true. The double faction status allows, for example, Rorsh to have a Mercenary Minion Farrow battlegroup.That might actually work, if there ever is a Mercenary Minion Farrow warbeast (that is not Brine). As long as there isn't, there's nothing to worry about.

tuttleboy
09-06-2012, 03:02 PM
I've read through the wall of text in the first post and don't understand what's being asked. Could you make it a bit more concise OP?

Kenton
09-06-2012, 03:20 PM
Frankly what difference does it actually make what the specific description of Pendrake is beyond tht he would be friendly faction to a Highborn army in which he was recruited? This is made possible in the rules as illustrated above.

From time to time there may or may not be fluff in my navel but I do not dwell on its function.

Breadsmith
09-06-2012, 04:32 PM
Of course a model can have multiple factions. Pendrake may be the only one ,(having both Cygnar and Minions) but he still clearly has two faction allegiances even before the Ally rule takes effect. Therefore, using the quoted rules as laid out above, (too lazy to check my own boks on this) Viktor would be a Cygnar Minion Mercenary Character Solo, and have perhaps the most glorious and wordy title ever.

Ger
09-06-2012, 09:50 PM
Bold is what I am asking.


I've read through the wall of text in the first post and don't understand what's being asked. Could you make it a bit more concise OP?
Below in bold is the concise question. Everything else is just explaining why I could not figure it out and received a counter-intuitive answer. Ironically the effort corresponded to losing track of time. I ran late to an appointment as a result. Sucks to find that I failed to communicate properly.


Frankly what difference does it actually make what the specific description of Pendrake is beyond tht he would be friendly faction to a Highborn army in which he was recruited? This is made possible in the rules as illustrated above.

From time to time there may or may not be fluff in my navel but I do not dwell on its function.

Oddly trying to pre-answer this question is why I went into such detail. I have been playing since MKII and Mercs are my faction. Ally is a rule that only affects Mercs. As a result I felt it imperative to explain why I was having an issue with a rule that should be basic for me.

Short version: This came about because I was looking at Pendrake and wondered "If he loses Cygnar does he lose minion". Upon reviewing Prime, FoW: Mercs, Wrath, and the errata I concluded I have been playing Ally wrong. Upon reviewing the search of the rules forum I became confused as what I read indicated I was playing it right. Thus wanting to play it correctly I made this thread.

Short why it matters: Retaining Cygnar faction? For Viktor, basically 2v2 or other Team Games. Shared league models with Cygnar are the only thing like that I'd expect to run into in 1v1 as Mercenary faction. However, what lead into this is wondering "Hey does Pendrake lose Minion too?". Not being a Minion does matter to mercenaries. I explained the bullsnapper interaction already.


Well, I was under the impression that the Infernals don't deal in questions on hypothetical rule interactions; and I try to avoid it, as well. If an interaction is not possible within the existing rules (and may well never be), there's no reason to deal with it.

That might actually work, if there ever is a Mercenary Minion Farrow warbeast (that is not Brine). As long as there isn't, there's nothing to worry about.

They do not and I was acknowledging that mistake. I got energetic and was pressed for time.

On the second bit, it matters because if Rorsh is forced to only be a Mercenary his battlegroup becomes Mercenary Farrow warbeasts of which there is only Brine.


You missed the edit

Yup! No insult meant. It may not come across but if I'm putting effort into a reply I'm taking it seriously. That comment was also not directed at any specific person as it was just a vent.






I'm sorry; I read every post in the rules forums, from reading the OP I'm uncertain of what the concise question is here.

Is solkan's restatement of the central question accurate, OP?

Given all the confusion. Clearly I failed to format correctly...I asked the question of this thread in the first sentence. Everything else is an explanation of why I'm asking it and why I'm suddenly questioning how myself and others have run it.

Hmm let me see if I can re-word it to be clear.

Question is
"As a result of the Ally rule, when fielded in a Mercenary Highborn Covenant Contract army what is the type line of Viktor Pendrake?"

Alright that should be better. I was using slang by calling it a "tag". I tried to figure out if there is a defined term for that part of the card but was unsuccessful. I'm referring to the text below the name when I said Tag or Typeline.


Breathsmith has drawn the exact same conclusion I did. (There should be at least a dozen Mercenary + Minion models. Which is dual faction. Viktor may be the only one that can be three factions at once.)

Ger
09-06-2012, 10:04 PM
Alright I'm going to add something.
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?48247-So-the-wrongeye-controlled-gators-in-a-mercenary-army-can-t-cast&highlight=Wrong+mercenary+bull+snapper

Of course, rydiafan, it should be pointed out the ally models in a mercenary army are Mercenary models instead of their regular faction.
Just wanted to show an example of what I saw on my rules search. This does not match RAW. This is how I thought it worked. Viktor Pendrake is unique by having two factions and Ally. If Ally is an "instead of" I don't understand whether Cygnar or Minion or both get removed. If it is "in addition" this statement and my understanding are wrong.


My question remains "As a result of the Ally rule, when fielded in a Mercenary Highborn Covenant Contract army what is the type line of Viktor Pendrake?". Viktor got me into this mess and understanding him will get me out.

Wishing
09-07-2012, 01:13 AM
So am I right in thinking that the question is essentially: Does the rule "Allies are Mercenary models when included in a Mercenary army" mean that they are Mercenaries *instead of* their faction, or *in addition to* their faction?

poeticruse
09-07-2012, 04:18 AM
Locking until I get a moment to answer it before this becomes completely unreadable.

Please try to be concise in the rules forums.

poeticruse
09-12-2012, 03:59 PM
The meaning of the ally rule ("Allies are Mercenary models when included in a Mercenary army.") is that the designation "[Splat] Ally" is replaced with "Mercenary" when the model is included in a mercenary army.

So for Kayazy Assassins, they can be a
Khador Ally Unit (in a Khador army)
or a
Mercenary Unit (in a Mercenary army)


Or for your Pendrake example, he's a
Cygnar Ally Minion Character Solo (in a Cygnar or Minions army)
or a
Mercenary Minion Character Solo (in a Mercenary army)

Ger
09-12-2012, 04:55 PM
Basically Ally attaches to the faction that directly proceeds it and modifies only that. So exactly how everyone uses it already. Alrighty, I'm quite happy with this ruling. Sorry for failing at brevity.

I realize the rules forum isn't the place but I am unsure where to put rules feedback. I find I rather hope the Ally rule's wording gets a little tweaking the next errata pass; to bring it more in line with similar rules. Seems similar to [Sea Dog] [Weapon Crew] vs [Sea Dog Crew] as is though.

poeticruse
09-12-2012, 05:37 PM
Given that it's exactly how everyone already uses it, I would not anticipate an erratum. Adding errata on things where the prevailing understanding, based on the wording in the book, has matched intent for this long is actually negative; it sows confusion where none exists. Thank you for a good question, and yes, please practice brevity!

Ger
09-12-2012, 05:51 PM
Working on it. There are reasons I was getting excessively long winded lately.

My counter point is that the prevailing understanding is not based on how the rule is worded. I feel it is correctly played due to how it is traditionally played, an assumption that it works the same as similar rules, how infrequent the rule gets referenced, and Viktor Pendrake being the only double faction with Ally. I personally draw a comparison to Shield Guard. Whose wording never changed until it had to be as a result of a shift in how it was played.

I do agree that this is not a priority erratum and it could cause confusion. The fact it is corner case and people are playing it right is ample reason to leave it as is. I wished to leave some feedback about it anyway.

I personally thank you for the compliment on my question. It is good to hear positive feedback such as that. Thank you for the constructive criticism as well.