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Prime8
10-27-2012, 11:41 AM
Hi.

I have a question concerning the way eyeless sight and channeling interact with concealment. Suppose Bethayne casts a spell through Belphagor. Then forests and cloud effects should be ignored when determining line of sight, while concealment, when making the attack roll, should not; at least according to this thread (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?78640). This is also supported here (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?64320).

However, the rules do not seem to support such an interpretation. On page 64 in Prime it says:

The point of origin of an effect or attack is the location or model from which the attack or effect originates. Typically this is the model causing the effect or making the attack, but not always. For example, when a warcaster channels a spell through an arc node, the arc node is the point of origin of the spell even though the warcaster is the model casting the spell. For attacks or effects that require line of sight to the target model, both line of sight and any attack roll modifiers that depend on line of sight (such as concealment) are checked from the point of origin of the attack.

From the errata the rules for eyeless sight state:
This model ignores concealment (p. 57) and Stealth (p. 34).

By reading the quoted rules I am led to believe that when Bethayne casts an offensive spell through Belphagor, who has eyeless sight, she should ignore the concealment penalty when making the attack roll. What am I missing?

rick17126
10-27-2012, 12:06 PM
Cut a pasted from a previously ill titled post.
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?122491

This is my understanding in regards to Eyeless Sight and Arc Nodes (Channeling).

Eyeless Sight has two separate effects:
1) When determining Line of Sight you get to ignore forests and cloud effects.
2) You always get to ignore Concealment and Stealth.

When you channel a spell you use the abilities on the Warcaster for resolving attacks.
You use the abilities of the channeler to determine Line of Sight for spells that require it.

If the Warcaster has Eyeless Sight and the channeler does not, you get to ignore Stealth and Concealment on the attack roll, but not forests and cloud effects for determining Line of Sight from the channeler.

If the channeler has Eyeless Sight and the Warcaster does not, you get to ignore forests and cloud effects for determining Line of Sight, but not Concealment and Stealth (the attack will auto-miss if the channeler is not within 5" of a target with Stealth).

Prime8
10-27-2012, 12:42 PM
Thank you for your answer Rick. Your explanation of why the rules in question interact with each other the way they do seems to be the prevailing one. However, in view of the quoted rules section concerning Point of Origin, I do not find it satisfactory. There, it says that attack roll modifiers are checked from the point of origin, and concealment is even mentioned as an example. When Belphagor is the point of origin, why is not concealment ignored per the rules of eyeless sight?

Mr. Golden Deal
10-27-2012, 01:23 PM
The point of origin is mentioned with regards to concealment/cover because from certain angles a model won't benefit from them (such as with a linear obstacle providing cover). The model making the attack (the spellcaster) would need to be able to ignore those benefits in order for Concealment/Cover to be ignored if they would otherwise be elegible for them.

bakaryu
10-27-2012, 02:26 PM
Because ignoring forests and clouds for determining line of sight is not the same thing as ignoring concealment. An easier example to look at for this is the comparison of Vyros1's Birdseye Ability and the Mage Hunter Strike Force's phantom seeker ability.

The former specifically states that it ignores forests, clouds and intervening models when determining line of sight.
The latter specifically states that it ignores line of sight when making attacks and also ignores cover and concealment.

Another example would be the Gun Mage Captain Adept who has crack shot and arcane precision.

If he doesn't aim he ignores cover and concealment but not stealth (granted for example by prowl). If he does aim he ignores the stealth too.