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Aldarionn
02-28-2010, 01:20 PM
OK so this came up over in the Cryx community forum. You can find the thread here (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=12745)

Basically the question is this:

A model with Drag on its weapon (A Black Ogrun or a Reaper for example) targets a unit of Men O War that are affected by Black Spot with its Harpoon. The Harpoon attack hits and damages the Man O War, so it is pushed durectly toward the attacking model until it's in melee range. The Black Ogrun/Reaper then makes a melee attack against the Man O War per the Drag ability and kills it. Black Spot then triggers, granting it an additional attack.

Can this attack be a ranged attack with the Harpoon, basically allowing the model to drag another target, then make another melee attack, and if it kills that model, continue the process over and over until it runs out of targets? (Note, this is not a question about RoF with Black Spot. We KNOW that attacks from Black Spot ignore RoF)

Black Spot can grant either a melee attack or a ranged attack with any weapon the model posesses, but it has to be an attack type that the model is eligible to make, correct? The last line of Drag permits the model to make additional MELEE attacks this combat action, but says nothing about additional ranged attacks. Furthermore, page 50 of the MK II Rulebook (paragraph 3 under the Combat Overview heading) says that a model may not make melee attacks and ranged attacks in the same activation. IE a model may not make a melee attack after a ranged attack, and may not make a ranged attack after a melee attack. Drag specifically allows a model to ignore this ONCE, and then allows said model to make additional MELEE attacks this combat action, but since it does not mention ranged attacks can I assume the model is then limited to the restrictions on page 50?

The way I see it, the Reaper/Black Ogrun would gain an additional melee attack from Black Spot if it could make one, but could not make further Harpoon attacks. Am I correct?

TheUnknownMercenary
02-28-2010, 02:18 PM
Drag says you can only make additional melee attacks after you drag a model, so you are correct in that you only make additional melee attacks from Black Spot.

McCryx
02-28-2010, 03:33 PM
Drag says you can only make additional melee attacks after you drag a model, so you are correct in that you only make additional melee attacks from Black Spot.

That's not how it's worded at all. It says that this model can make melee attacks this activation.

This clarification is specific because the initial attack was a RANGED attack. So black spot allows the model to continue making RANGED attacks which in turn generate melee attack which are allowed due to the rules of DRAG.

:Undead:

Aldarionn
02-28-2010, 04:02 PM
Drag - If this weapon damages an enemy model with an equal or smaller base, immediately after the attack is resolved the damaged model may be pushed any distance directly toward this model. After the damaged model is moved, this model can make one normal melee attack against the model pushed. After resolving this melee attack, this model can make additional melee attacks during its combat action.

From page 50 of the MK II Rulebook, under Combat Overview, paragraph 3:

There are three main types of attacks: melee attacks, ranged attacks, and magic attacks. A model cannot make both melee and ranged attacks during its combat action. In other words, a model cannot make a ranged attack after making a melee attack, and it cannot make a melee attack after making a ranged attack. Magic attacks have no such restrictions. Some models, such as Warcasters, can make magic attacks and melee or ranged attacks during the same activation.

I cannot say this in any more plain language. Drag specifically allows the model to continue making MELEE attacks. It is very specific. Your initial attack was a ranged attack, but by the rules on PG 50 a model cannot make a ranged attack after making a melee attack, and it cannot make a melee attack after making a ranged attack. So Model A hits and damages Model B with its Harpoon (which has Drag). Drag allows Model A's controlling player to push Model B any distance directly toward Model A. Model A may then make one normal melee attack against Model B per the rules of drag. After this attack, Model A may make further MELEE attacks this round. Model A just made a melee attack, and cannot make a ranged attack after a melee attack. By those rules, Model A may NOT make another Harpoon attack to drag another model. Drag allows Model A to make a ranged attack, then continue making melee attacks, which is the only time it circumvents the rules that disallow melee and ranged attacks in the same combat action. Drag does NOT allow for further ranged attacks after your initial ranged attack.

Black Spot is the only spell we have access to that allows for further ranged attacks that ignore RoF, and it does not allow you to make ranged attacks after making melee attacks, or melee attacks after making ranged attacks.

This combo doesn't work.

If we get a ruling otherwise I'll be more than happy to go by it, but RAW right now, it doesn't work.

McCryx
02-28-2010, 04:27 PM
I guess we'll just have to wait for an infernal.

Aldarionn
02-28-2010, 04:32 PM
Seems pretty cut and dry to me, but if an Infernal says otherwise then thats fine as well. I do play Cryx, and while I like the idea of chaining harpoon attacks onto Trolls, Men O War, Cavalry and other multi-wound models, it doesn't work by RAW nor do I think it was the intent.

Writer@Large
02-28-2010, 05:43 PM
I cannot say this in any more plain language. Drag specifically allows the model to continue making MELEE attacks.
And I can not say this in any plainer language: Black Spot's special rule supercedes the basic rules, as all ability and effect rules do. Normally, a model cannot make a ranged attack, but Black Spot allows the model to ignore this restriction.

Consider a different example: Rengrave charges a unit under Black Spot and cuts down a trooper with his sword. Black Spot activates. Assuming there's no other trooper in melee range ... can Rengrave now fire his pistol?

Yes, because Black spot simply says that "When a friendly Faction model destroys one or more affected models with a melee or ranged attack during its activation, immediately after the attack is resolved it can make one additional melee or ranged attack regardless of ROF." [Emphasis mine.] Note that it does not say that the model "can make an attack of the same type." You may as well say that the Assault order doesn't work, because the order violates the core rule (ranged and melee in the same activation). Black Spot, like Assault, grants an ability a model normally wouldn't have.


After this attack, Model A may make further MELEE attacks this round. Model A just made a melee attack, and cannot make a ranged attack after a melee attack. By those rules, Model A may NOT make another Harpoon attack to drag another model. And the irony here is that you're using one special rule that allows for the "no melee and ranged in the same turn" to be violated, to counter another special rule that violates the same. Priceless!

--W@L

Aldarionn
02-28-2010, 09:13 PM
And I can not say this in any plainer language: Black Spot's special rule supercedes the basic rules, as all ability and effect rules do. Normally, a model cannot make a ranged attack, but Black Spot allows the model to ignore this restriction.

Consider a different example: Rengrave charges a unit under Black Spot and cuts down a trooper with his sword. Black Spot activates. Assuming there's no other trooper in melee range ... can Rengrave now fire his pistol?

Yes, because Black spot simply says that "When a friendly Faction model destroys one or more affected models with a melee or ranged attack during its activation, immediately after the attack is resolved it can make one additional melee or ranged attack regardless of ROF." [Emphasis mine.] Note that it does not say that the model "can make an attack of the same type." You may as well say that the Assault order doesn't work, because the order violates the core rule (ranged and melee in the same activation). Black Spot, like Assault, grants an ability a model normally wouldn't have.

And the irony here is that you're using one special rule that allows for the "no melee and ranged in the same turn" to be violated, to counter another special rule that violates the same. Priceless!

--W@L
No, a model has to have permission to do something. Black spot gives a model permission to make another ranged or melee attack after it kills a model. It does NOT give that model permission to ignore the fact that it cannot make both ranged and melee attacks in the same round.

Drag gives a model permission to make a melee attack after it damaged a model with its ranged attack, then gives that same model permission to make further melee attacks during its combat action. It does NOT give it permission to further ignore the rules covered on page 50.

Assault gives a model permission to make a ranged attack at the end of a charge move before it makes its charge melee attack.

Point Blank gives a model permission to fire it's ranged weapon in melee along with making melee attacks.

All of the above special rules supersede the rules on page 50 because they give the model PERMISSION to do so. Nowhere in Black Spots wording does it give a model permission to make ranged attacks if it has already made melee attacks this round, and nowhere in Drag's wording does it give a model permission to make further ranged attacks after it makes its melee attack, but it DOES give permission to make further melee attacks.

This is not a prohibitive rules set, this is a permissive rules set. If it doesnt say you CAN do something, you CANNOT.

Malekhant
02-28-2010, 10:14 PM
I see that this can go both ways, but I would rather see it ruled towards having black ogrun/reapers getting another ranged attack since they kinda suck.

jonconcarne
03-01-2010, 12:10 AM
No, a model has to have permission to do something. Black spot gives a model permission to make another ranged or melee attack after it kills a model. It does NOT give that model permission to ignore the fact that it cannot make both ranged and melee attacks in the same round.

I guess we see this differently, but when an ability says that I can do something, why does it need to say it twice in more words? Maybe it's just that this situation never came up before so that they never needed to say "regardless of other rules limiting ranged or melee attacks" or "does not ignore the 'Cannot make ranged/melee attacks int he same activation' rules."

Obviously, we disagree on how to interpret this set of rules. I hope I'm making the other viewpoint clear without being rude.

Sidenote: Somebody sound the infernal horn.

Runic
03-01-2010, 02:29 AM
I love it when people post rules questions and already word the question to lean heavily toward their own agenda instead of making it completely neutral.

Ogrun gets to do a melee and a ranged attack on the same activation to beginwith, allowed by Drag, a Ranged Attack that spesifically allows it to do a Melee Attack, and even Additional Melee Attacks after that. This is where you can make a paper plane from the paragraph that says it cannot and throw it out the window as special rules override the basic ones. Indeed even epic Skarre herself has been seen charging something, killing it with a melee attack, and then firing her Hand Cannon due to Black Spot. If this is not how the rule is intended to function, now is the time for an Infernal to step up and clarify.

It destroys a model with a normal Melee Attack spesifically allowed to be made by the harpoon Ranged Attack with Drag. The normal Melee Attack allowed by the harpoon Ranged Attack with Drag now triggers Black Spot, allowing for another ranged attack regardless of a weapons ROF. This newly allowed ROF ignoring ranged attack is a Black Spot triggered harpoon Ranged Attack with Drag, that allows the model using such an attack to make a normal melee attack against the model dragged. Repeat from the beginning.

I think this will be ruled not to allow infinite harpoon attacks altough the RAW would say otherwise black and white on print. Which in a way is good, but occasionally takes the fun out of finding new interesting things.

James Harrison
03-01-2010, 04:42 AM
I guess we see this differently, but when an ability says that I can do something, why does it need to say it twice in more words? Maybe it's just that this situation never came up before so that they never needed to say "regardless of other rules limiting ranged or melee attacks" or "does not ignore the 'Cannot make ranged/melee attacks int he same activation' rules."

Hi,

I don't know what the answer is (I'm undecided how it should be ruled); however if Black Spot does not allow a ranged attack to follow a melee attack (or visa versa) there is a legitimate reason that it would be worded "additional melee or ranged attack" rather than "additional attack of the same type" - the Virtuoso power. (i.e. in combination this would allow melee attack kill, Black Spot triggers, ranged attack happens).

Black Spot - When a friendly Faction model destroys one or more affected models with a melee or ranged attack during its activation, immediately after the attack is resolved it can make one additional melee or ranged attack regardless of ROF.

Virtuoso - This model can make melee and ranged attacks during the same combat action. When this model makes its initial attacks, it can make both it's initial ranged and melee attacks


Virtuoso -

Writer@Large
03-01-2010, 08:16 AM
No, a model has to have permission to do something. Black spot gives a model permission to make another ranged or melee attack after it kills a model.
Right. A melee or a ranged attack. The rule says: "it can make one additional melee or ranged attack ..." Melee or ranged. Melee. OR. Ranged. The rule gives permission for the model to do either.


It does NOT give that model permission to ignore the fact that it cannot make both ranged and melee attacks in the same round.Drag itself already gives permission to violate this core rule. Why are you okay with one special rule superceding the basic rule, but not another?


Nowhere in Black Spots wording does it give a model permission to make ranged attacks if it has already made melee attacks this round, Melee or ranged. Melee or ranged. Melee. OR. Ranged. That is the way it is worded.

http://www.splendicity.com/sheknowsbest/files/2008/06/smiley-bangheadonwall-yellow.gif

--W@L

Aldarionn
03-01-2010, 08:25 AM
My main point is just because a rule specifically allows you to make one melée attack after you damage a model with a ranged attack it does not give you license to make ranged attacks after melée attacks. In other words, the rule is exclusive to a melée attack after a ranged attack and does not go the other way. You need to be given further permission from a special rule to do that.

I see the other side to the argument, but I just don't believe it's valid. We are all entitled to our own opinion, and mine is that these rules seem to be pretty cut and dried and this is not allowed. If your opinion differs then that's fine. As for Skarre charging a model in melée then firing her Hand Cannon via Black Spot, I think that is wrong as well. The wording of Black Spot allows you to make a melée or ranged attack after killing an affected model with a melée or ranged attack, but I don't see anything in the wordingthat would allow you to ignore the rules that disallow melée and ranged attacks in the same activation. If Im wrong then mia culpa, but I don't think I am.

Writer@Large
03-01-2010, 08:29 AM
You need to be given further permission from a special rule to do that.
The spell IS the special rule.

Sigh. Will wait for an Infernal's word ... until then, playing as interpreted, as that's the way we've played it since the model's release.

--W@L

jonconcarne
03-01-2010, 08:30 AM
My main point is just because a rule specifically allows you to make one melée attack after you damage a model with a ranged attack it does not give you license to make ranged attacks after melée attacks. In other words, the rule is exclusive to a melée attack after a ranged attack and does not go the other way. You need to be given further permission from a special rule to do that.


I guess why we see differently is I don't see Black Spot saying you can only follow up a ranged attack with a melee attack. I'm actually confused as to how you don't have a problem with melee after ranged, but do have a problem with ranged after melee. Color me confuzled.

Aldarionn
03-01-2010, 09:03 AM
I guess why we see differently is I don't see Black Spot saying you can only follow up a ranged attack with a melee attack. I'm actually confused as to how you don't have a problem with melee after ranged, but do have a problem with ranged after melee. Color me confuzled.

Its because drag specifically says you may make a melee attack against the target of your ranged attack, then continue making melee attacks. its wording is specific on that. Nothing in its wording allows you to make further ranged attacks after you make melee attacks.

Black Spot's wording is very different.
"When a friendly Faction model destroys one or more affected models with a melee or ranged attack during its activation, immediately after the attack is resolved it can make one additional melee or ranged attack regardless of ROF."

One side of this argument reads the above rule as allowing you to make a melee attack following a ranged attack, or a ranged attack following a melee attack. The other side reads the rule as saying that you can follow a ranged attack with a ranged attack or a melee attack with a melee attack, but you cannot make both in the same activation per pg 50. I understand that special rules trump the rules in the rulebook, but I don't think this spell's wording specifically says anything that would trump those rules. Drag on the other hand has specific instructions saying "make a melee attack after a ranged attack" so it obviously DOES trump those rules (however it does not say anything about making further ranged attacks after a melee attack, so it does not work the other way).

I understand your argument, I'm simply trying to get you to understand mine. This will come down to an infernal ruling because obviously this can be interpreted multiple ways (or this thread would not exist).

Bonehead
03-01-2010, 09:17 AM
Actually, the spell's wording tells you exactly what you can do which is make a melee or ranged attack.

blue loki
03-01-2010, 09:20 AM
This could possibly go either way, but consider the following:

By making an initial ranged attack, a model by default is allowed to make additional ranged attacks providing that they have some mechanism that allows them to purchase said attacks. Drag allows the model to make additional melee attacks, and does not explicitly prevent additional ranged attacks. Black Spot allows you to make an additional ranged or melee attack.

So, the model that successfully executed a drag has been granted permission to perform both types of additional attack and has not been explicitly prevented from performing either type of additional attack.

Furthermore, the wording of Black Spot has changed since MKI. In MKI, a model was restricted to performing the same type of attack as the one that triggered Black Spot. The omission of this wording may indicate that this restriction has been purposefully removed. Then again, that was MKI, so it may not mean a thing.

As currently worded, I would say that the RAW indicates that Black Spot allows either an additional ranged or an additional melee attack, player's choice, in this instance. Going by past precedent though, I'm not sure if this is intended or not.

Aldarionn
03-01-2010, 09:30 AM
This could possibly go either way, but consider the following:

By making an initial ranged attack, a model by default is allowed to make additional ranged attacks providing that they have some mechanism that allows them to purchase said attacks. Drag allows the model to make additional melee attacks, and does not explicitly prevent additional ranged attacks. Black Spot allows you to make an additional ranged or melee attack.

So, the model that successfully executed a drag has been granted permission to perform both types of additional attack and has not been explicitly prevented from performing either type of additional attack.

Furthermore, the wording of Black Spot has changed since MKI. In MKI, a model was restricted to performing the same type of attack as the one that triggered Black Spot. The omission of this wording may indicate that this restriction has been purposefully removed. Then again, that was MKI, so it may not mean a thing.

As currently worded, I would say that the RAW indicates that Black Spot allows either an additional ranged or an additional melee attack, player's choice, in this instance. Going by past precedent though, I'm not sure if this is intended or not.Fair enough, a well reasoned point. I think it needs clarification bcause like I said, two people can read these relevant rules and come up with two different interpretations of how this works.

vintersbastard
03-01-2010, 09:32 AM
So, the model that successfully executed a drag has been granted permission to perform both types of additional attack and has not been explicitly prevented from performing either type of additional attack.

That's the question, though. Does that third sentence of the Drag rule (the one about additional attacks) allow you to perform additional melee attacks, supplementary to the ranged attacks you could perform due to having done a ranged attack as an initial attack,
or does it actually clear up what kind of additional attack your allowed to perform at all after having used Drag and thereby breaking the rule preventing ranged and melee attacks in the same activation.

blue loki
03-01-2010, 09:42 AM
That's the question, though. Does that third sentence of the Drag rule (the one about additional attacks) allow you to perform additional melee attacks, supplementary to the ranged attacks you could perform due to having done a ranged attack as an initial attack,
or does it actually clear up what kind of additional attack your allowed to perform at all after having used Drag and thereby breaking the rule preventing ranged and melee attacks in the same activation.

As I see it, here is the "chain of events".
1. Combat Action is chosen, thereby allowing Ranged or Melee attacks.
2. Initial Ranged attack is chosen, thereby allowing Initial and Additional Ranged attacks and disallowing Initial and Additional Melee attacks.
3. Drag triggers, thereby allowing one Immediate Melee attack and Additional melee attacks.
4. Black Spot triggers, thereby allowing an Additional Ranged or Melee attack.

You start from a position of not being able to perform any type of attack. As you make choices about your Action, and as certain triggers are activated, you are granted and denied the ability to perform certain types of attack.

Once "Initial Ranged Attack" is chosen from the possible Action options, "Additional Ranged Attacks" becomes an option for the model during its Combat Action. Nothing after that point in this sequence ever retracts that option.

jonconcarne
03-01-2010, 10:10 AM
That's the question, though. Does that third sentence of the Drag rule (the one about additional attacks) allow you to perform additional melee attacks, supplementary to the ranged attacks you could perform due to having done a ranged attack as an initial attack,
or does it actually clear up what kind of additional attack your allowed to perform at all after having used Drag and thereby breaking the rule preventing ranged and melee attacks in the same activation.

I think the bigger question is more in regards to what Black Spot allows you to do. If Black Spot allows you to make extra ranged or melee attacks regardless of what you did first, then it doesn't matter whether your drag attacks mean you can only do melee afterwards or if you're still eligible for ranged attacks.

Here's another reason why I think Black Spot allows you to make a ranged or melee attack, superceding the no ranged/melee in the same activation.

Assault - As part of a charge, after moving but before making its charge attack, this model can make one ranged attack targeting the model charged unless they were in melee with each other at the start of this modelʼs activation. When resolving an Assault ranged attack, the attacking model does not suffer the target in melee penalty. If the target is not in melee range after moving, this model can make the Assault ranged attack before its activation ends.

Black Spot
Target enemy warrior model/unit suffers ?2 DEF. When a friendly Faction model destroys one or more affected models with a melee or ranged attack during its activation, immediately after the attack is resolved it can make one additional melee or ranged attack regardless of ROF. Attacks gained from Black Spot cannot generate additional attacks from Black Spot.

If you say that "can make x attack" says that you CAN do it, regardless of basic rules, then both Assault and Black Spot ignore the basic rule of no melee/range in the same round. If you say that "can make x attack" says that you CAN'T do it unless allowed by a basic rule, then neither work.

Writer@Large
03-01-2010, 10:45 AM
That's the question, though. Does that third sentence of the Drag rule (the one about additional attacks) allow you to perform additional melee attacks, supplementary to the ranged attacks you could perform due to having done a ranged attack as an initial attack,
or does it actually clear up what kind of additional attack your allowed to perform at all after having used Drag and thereby breaking the rule preventing ranged and melee attacks in the same activation.
The wording on Drag is specifically written with the Reaper in mind, as that was the original model to have the ability. The Drag rule is necessary for the Reaper to be able to hit a model after it pulls it towards itself, and then to spend FOC for additional attacks against that model. Normally, a warjack that fired a gun first would not be able to spend FOC for additional melee attacks, and so the Drag rule makes that allowance.

IOW, the Drag wording is for warjacks who can legitimately buy extra attacks as part of their normal model rules. It is not a rule putting limitations on Black Spot or any other spell.

--W@L

vintersbastard
03-01-2010, 10:58 AM
@jonconcarne: Your Assault - Black Spot comparison sounds convincing. Yeah, this probably makes my ambiguous interpretation of the Drag rules moot.

So Black Spot effectively gives a model the Virtuoso rule as far as additional attacks are concerned. (Not for the initial attacks, though!)

jonconcarne
03-01-2010, 10:59 AM
@jonconcarne:
So Black Spot effectively gives a model the Virtuoso rule as far as additional attacks are concerned. (Not for the initial attacks, though!)

Write that down for Mark3!

Aldarionn
03-01-2010, 11:58 AM
@jonconcarne: Your Assault - Black Spot comparison sounds convincing. Yeah, this probably makes my ambiguous interpretation of the Drag rules moot.

So Black Spot effectively gives a model the Virtuoso rule as far as additional attacks are concerned. (Not for the initial attacks, though!)

Thats really whats in question here I guess. I'm really not sure that it DOES give the model the virtuoso rule in that respect, though I can see the argument for it. It all seems a bit ambiguously worded, and could have used a more specific wording so that the intent was clear from the beginning. I would like to hear some sort of official word on this.

jonconcarne
03-01-2010, 12:04 PM
Thats really whats in question here I guess. I'm really not sure that it DOES give the model the virtuoso rule in that respect, though I can see the argument for it. It all seems a bit ambiguously worded, and could have used a more specific wording so that the intent was clear from the beginning. I would like to hear some sort of official word on this.

Is it really that ambiguous? What's your perspective on Assault then, if I may ask? The wording is so close to me, that I thought it should clear up any issues you had with the ambiguity.

Aldarionn
03-01-2010, 06:35 PM
Assault seems rather specific. You charge, and before you make your charge attack you get to make a ranged attack against the model you charged, ignoring the firing into melee restrictions. The wording is similar but the effects of the abilities are vastly different.

Again, I could be totally wrong, but something about the way Black Spot is worded just doesn't sit right with me when it comes to making ranged and melee attacks in the same round. I'm content to wait and hear from an Infernal though, if one ever determines his presence is necessary.

solkan
03-01-2010, 07:54 PM
The problem with comparing Assault and Black Spot is that Assault can't work at all without ignoring the prohibition about mixing ranged and melee attacks. The Assault rule specifically calls for making a ranged attack immediately before the normal charge attack without mention of any cancellation.

On the other hand, Black Spot does work when combined with the restriction against mixing ranged and melee attacks. Cast Black Spot on most of the other models in the Cryx catalog and the models will take full advantage of Black Spot without ever being in a position to try to mix ranged and melee attacks.

yankeefan
03-01-2010, 08:11 PM
stuff

holy wall of text batman!

as to the question at hand wouldn't the spell override the base rule as it in itself is a "special" rule?

jonconcarne
03-01-2010, 08:30 PM
I'm content to wait and hear from an Infernal though, if one ever determines his presence is necessary.

Maybe they're on vacation. That might account for the lack of activity on the forums recently.

Micf2302
03-01-2010, 10:16 PM
Drag: ''[...] After resolving this melee attack, this model can make additional melee attacks during its combat action.''

Black Sport ''[...] it can make one additional melee or ranged attack''

For me the problem comes from these 2 sentences. The fact that drags specify that you can make additional melee attacks would seems to indicate to me that ALL extra attack MUST be melee attacks.

BUT, as was pointed out earlier, the real question is:
Is this sentence ''[...] it can make one additional melee or ranged attack'' meant to override the rule from PG 50? Or is it just written like that because of the possibility of a virtuoso? But if that is the case why didn't they just write: ''[...] it can make one additional attack''????


Okay, I'm officially unsure, even if I think I would side with the people saying you can make a range OR melee attack.

AshesAshes
03-01-2010, 10:17 PM
Yeah, this is def a question for the Infernal. You could argue that Drag already supersedes the rulebook rules on using melee and ranged attacks during the same activation, or you could argue that Drag only allows for the follow up melee attacks, but not additional ranged attacks. I don't know, I can see it either way.

Personally hope that they rule in favor of being able to make multiple ranged attacks :)

blue loki
03-02-2010, 05:27 AM
Drag does only grant permission to perform additional melee attacks. However it does not simultaneously deny permission for anything else. It is purely granting you permission to do something you otherwise couldn't.

It is by the fact that the model performed an Initial Ranged attack that they are granted the ability to make additional ranged attacks. Nothing else in the sequence of events removes this ability.

Writer@Large
03-02-2010, 05:53 AM
Drag: ''[...] After resolving this melee attack, this model can make additional melee attacks during its combat action.''

Black Sport ''[...] it can make one additional melee or ranged attack''

For me the problem comes from these 2 sentences. The fact that drags specify that you can make additional melee attacks would seems to indicate to me that ALL extra attack MUST be melee attacks.
So the rule for Drag supercedes and imposes itself on the rule for Black Spot? So a model without Drag--like Skarre herself--COULD shoot after cutting a trooper down, but the Ogrun or the Reaper can't?

That doesn't make sense. The Drag rule isn't written as a limitation--the model may make ONLY additional melee attacks this activation--but as a permissive--in contravention of the standard rules, the model may ALSO make additional melee attacks after its ranged attack. Black Spot is likewise a permissive--the model may ALSO make a melee OR ranged attack after destroying an affected model.

So, in effect, two special rules of different names stack to give the model two different, but overlapping permissions. Drag gives it permission to make extra melee attacks, in violation of the standard rule (but not the special rule); while Black Spot also allows it to make an extra melee attack but ALSO extends that permission to allow for a single ranged attack, in violation of the standard rule (but not the special rule).

If you want to get pedantic about it (and we got there long ago ;) ), the initial attack that the model made in the round--the legal attack--was a RANGED attack, and so although Drag allows for a melee attack after the Drag as part of its special rule, the model has SET its attack type for the round to ranged, and therefore if the "attack of the same type only" limitation were true, it CAN make additional ranged attacks with Black Spot, but CANNOT make additional melee attacks with BS, except when said melee attacks happen as part of the Drag special rule.

Dear gods, you people have turned me into a rules lawyer.

--W@L

Cuagau
03-02-2010, 07:28 AM
Through reading this thread, I have at all time agreed with W@L.

My 2p worth.

DemonCalibre
03-02-2010, 07:32 AM
Wow....there is some hardcore not reading of the rules going on in this thread.

Lets separate some facts.

First, Drag allowing you to make Melee attacks has nothing to do with Black Spot.

The Purpose of allowing Drag to allow you to make melee attacks after shooting, is so that Drag's functionality in a normal environment, works. Normally if I shoot my Harpoon I can not make any more melee attacks, because all attacks in my turn must be the same type. Drag says I may make melee attacks after I drag a model. Please note it is not saying I can *only* make melee attacks it is merely allowing me to.

So Drag allows me to make ranged and melee attacks in the same activation. I make a ranged attack which means I can only make ranged attacks this activation, I hit something and drag it, Drag's rules proc and say Yo you can make melee attacks as well. Nothing in Drag removes my ability to make ranged attacks. Remember the Last line on Drag is not to make all of the attacks melee, but to allow you to make more melee attacks after dragging at all. Remember it works like this Reaper chooses to make Ranged attack, it by the core rules of the game can make additional ranged attacks, presuming it doesn't exceed it's ROF. When Drag hits and happens, it opens up another option of buying additional melee attacks(which was previously unaccessable due to the fact you chose initial ranged attacks), it does not say you are not allow to make additional ranged attacks anywhere at all in the rule.

Drag + Black Spot works as written, due to the fact that drag allows me to make melee attacks in a turn where I have made a range attack. Nowhere in the rule for Drag does it say all of my attacks from then on must melee, though they generally must be because when you drag you generally have a model in your melee range.

As for Black Spot basically giving you Virtusoso for Black Spots attacks, Who can say, going by the Assault Ruling the answer would be yes. Though I would say the Assault ruling was kind of a SNAFU, where something that didn't work was forced to work, and we are going to have all sorts of weird problems form the precedent it sets.

Lastly for the Black Spot combo with Drag, I believe that is one catch that the Attack Generated by Drag, and the Attack Generated by your ranged attack hitting with Black Spot, don't stack as that One attack can only ever generate one more attack, and that would generate two.

Now that doesn't prevent the combo, just makes it more difficult, As you have to shoot a model that doesn't die from the Harpoon, but will die from a single hit from the Helldriver.

2LiveIs2Die
03-02-2010, 07:43 AM
I think you're all over thinking this.

Blackspot:
After the attack is resolved it can make one additional melee or ranged attack regardless of ROF.

That's all.

Cuagau
03-02-2010, 07:48 AM
Drag + Black Spot works as written, due to the fact that drag allows me to make melee attacks in a turn where I have made a range attack. Nowhere in the rule for Drag does it say all of my attacks from then on must melee, though they generally must be because when you drag you generally have a model in your melee range.

Lastly for the Black Spot combo with Drag, I believe that is one catch that the Attack Generated by Drag, and the Attack Generated by your ranged attack hitting with Black Spot, don't stack as that One attack can only ever generate one more attack, and that would generate two.

Now that doesn't prevent the combo, just makes it more difficult, As you have to shoot a model that doesn't die from the Harpoon, but will die from a single hit from the Helldriver.

Black Spot necessitates the enemy models destruction.

As I see it, a sequence is required to explain.

Reaper shoots harpoon at unit affected by Black Spot
1) Does it hit. If Yes, go to 2. In No, go home and cry.
2) Does the harpoon Damage the Model? If Yes, go to 3, If No go to 4

3) Does the harpoon destroy the model? If yes, go to 5, If no go to 4)

4) Does Harpoon damage the model? If Yes, go to 6, If no, Go home and cry.


5) May spend Focus for addition ranged or melee attacks as per Black Spot. Assume addition harpoon shot is bought. Go to 1.

6) Model is dragged into melee Range. Make Automatic Melee attack as per Drag. Is model destroyed? Yes, go to 5. If No, go to 7.
7) Model may spend Focus to buy addition melee attacks as per Drag that automatically hit as per Sustained Attack. Is model destroyed yet? If yes, go to 5. If No, go to 7.

I think that's the entire chain of events. I may have missed a possibility or two out.

EDIT: Items 2 and 4 may seem confusing (as they are almost the same), but it does make sense, I promise. Basically Items 2 and 3 could be combined into a single Item. I just didn't as my pizza is burning.

Writer@Large
03-02-2010, 07:54 AM
I think you're all over thinking this.

Blackspot:
After the attack is resolved it can make one additional melee or ranged attack regardless of ROF.

That's all.
Yeah, that's what some of us said in the beginning. In the other thread. In the Cryx forum. It always begins so simple and obvious, yet here we are ...

--W@L

Cuagau
03-02-2010, 08:04 AM
Now that doesn't prevent the combo, just makes it more difficult, As you have to shoot a model that doesn't die from the Harpoon, but will die from a single hit from the Helldriver.

As such, it's statistically more Focus efficient to kill a model in a unit affected by Black Spot. You can just purchase another shot and try Kill another one.
If you Drag, you run the chance of missing with the automatic melee attack, necessitating the use of a another focus (allowed per Drag) if you want to attempt to destroy the model to fire another shot.

As such, in terms of the focus you'd have to pour into a Reaper to make total use of this combo, plus casting and hitting with the spell (which may require a boost itself), I'm beginning to write this tactic off as a bit too inefficient. You better off taking a jack with a bigger gun or reach and charging the unit. A harrower or nightwretch for example. Or cankerworm that just ate a Defender :P.

blue loki
03-02-2010, 08:06 AM
Lastly for the Black Spot combo with Drag, I believe that is one catch that the Attack Generated by Drag, and the Attack Generated by your ranged attack hitting with Black Spot, don't stack as that One attack can only ever generate one more attack, and that would generate two.

If it was the Ranged attack that generated both you would be correct, but it is not. The Ranged attack generates a melee attack. The melee attack generates a Black Spot attack. Generated additional attacks can generate more additional attacks.

If it worked as you described, Berserk wouldn't work beyond a single additional attack.

Invid
03-02-2010, 10:47 AM
I believe that it works. I think the timing has been layed out pretty clearly. Be interesting for an infernal ruling.

DemonCalibre
03-02-2010, 10:54 AM
Oh, you are quite correct, for whatever reason I thought black spot would trigger from the Harpoon hit, but it does not, because if it did you would have to have killed the model. I was accurate with black spot destroying except for that.

Techcasualty
03-02-2010, 10:59 AM
Why would the process continue over and over?

Harpoon would hit
melee attack kills target (black spot triggers)
Fire Harpoon again
melee attack kills target (end)

I would argue that the second melee attack that triggers, while directly generates from drag is an attack gained by means of black spot.

If black spot were to not proc the second melee attack would never happen.

Overall though, you are just banging your head against the wall until this is answered with an errata

Weaselcreature
03-02-2010, 11:04 AM
@Tech: I don't think the melee attack triggered off the harpoon is considered an attack gained by Blackspot; it's an attack gained by Drag. Similar to Self Sacrifice not triggering Gerlacks lawnmowing. Gerlack doesn't kill the Errant, Self Sacrifice does.

DemonCalibre
03-02-2010, 11:16 AM
The attack from Drag is not generated by spot, which means it can trigger a spot attack.

You Harpoon your target, drag it in and swing at it with drag attack, drag attack kills it, this procs an additional shot, you choose to shoot the harpoon, it hits, drags a guy(generating another Drag attack), that Drag attack generates another Black Spot presuming it kills the target.

It isn't such a huge deal as the enviroment where your reaper is going to have models in it's short range, Hit them with the Harp, and not kill them, then kill them with the hell driver, to fire another harp, is exceptionally limited.

jonconcarne
03-02-2010, 11:22 AM
The attack from Drag is not generated by spot, which means it can trigger a spot attack.

You Harpoon your target, drag it in and swing at it with drag attack, drag attack kills it, this procs an additional shot, you choose to shoot the harpoon, it hits, drags a guy(generating another Drag attack), that Drag attack generates another Black Spot presuming it kills the target.

It isn't such a huge deal as the enviroment where your reaper is going to have models in it's short range, Hit them with the Harp, and not kill them, then kill them with the hell driver, to fire another harp, is exceptionally limited.

Keep in mind that you can have another harpoon attack if your harpoon kills the model initially.

fastlane
03-02-2010, 04:01 PM
I believe as written, that if black spot specifically says a melee or ranged attack, you can perform a melee or ranged attack, and as such this combo technically works. It's pretty janky though, and because black spot attacks don't trigger black spot attacks, I foresee this being errata'd with the line "any model may only benefit from a single extra attack per activation due to black spot" to limit the abuse of the combo.

Edit - forget that last part. I hadn't even considered things that should be able to benefit more than once per turn legitimately (as in the leviathan described by the following post) and was thinking specifically of the drag/melee combo. It still sounds like it should work RAW and I still think the combo is pretty beardy and likely unintended, but other than the mkI ruling described elsewhere in this thread (restricting the free attack to the type of the attack that destroyed the spotted model) I'm not sure how I'd go about fixing it. I got nothin'. Move along, nothing to see here...

zorrax
03-03-2010, 06:10 AM
I foresee this being errata'd with the line "any model may only benefit from a single extra attack per activation due to black spot" to limit the abuse of the combo.

What about my leviathan? An Infernal already ruled that with my ROF 3, I can get 6 shots total.

blue loki
03-03-2010, 06:19 AM
Right.

If the combo is not intended, the best way to resolve it is to revert to the MKI ruling that a Black Spot attack must be of the same type as the attack that generated it. That would effectively neuter the Drag combo, but would not punish every other model attempting to get good use out of Black Spot, and would not require any modification to the Drag mechanic.

Writer@Large
03-03-2010, 06:38 AM
the best way to resolve it is to revert to the MKI ruling that a Black Spot attack must be of the same type as the attack that generated it
Link? I'm not aware of any such ruling. As previously noted, Skarre has been shooting people in the face for years after cutting a BP trooper down.

--W@L

blue loki
03-03-2010, 06:49 AM
From the old FAQ:

Q: Do you get a ranged or a melee attack after hitting and Dragging a model affected by Black Spot?
A: If the melee attack destroys the Black Spotted model, it gains an additional melee attack.

http://sites.privateerpress.com/FAQ/warmachine/faq.php?category=3#151

Ranged attacks generated Ranged attacks. Melee attacks generated melee attacks. Impact attacks generated nothing.

DemonCalibre
03-03-2010, 06:55 AM
That was MK1 though, which has no bearing on MK2 Loki

N0rdicNinja
03-03-2010, 06:57 AM
While true, Loki is the only one with substantial proof of the way it should work... so I think I shall have to attach my hitch to his wagon.

blue loki
03-03-2010, 07:21 AM
I know it is the MKI ruling. W@L asked where I got the idea of the old ruling from. This is it.

My only point in bring it up is that IF the current apparent state of the Drag/BS combo is not intended to function the way that it apparently does, the best way to errata it would be to once again rule it as it had been ruled in MKI.

Writer@Large
03-03-2010, 08:03 AM
Well, there it is, then. Geez, blue loki, you should've posted that 49 posts ago, and saved us all the sturm und drang.

Though I have to say, as a degreed English instructor, that ruling does NOT fit with the rule as written, as I've laid out before. The sentence does not indicate a restriction and, as we've seen, is open to ambiguity. A better wording, based on that ruling, would be: "immediately after this attack is resolved, the model may make another attack of the same type against a legal target. Ranged attacks generated by Black Spot do not count against a weapon's ROF." Missed opportunity in MKII, I suppose.

So, barring a MKII reversal, there's no more charging in with Skarre or Rengrave, cutting a BP'd trooper down, and then shooting someone in the face. Sigh ... :(

--W@L

Aldarionn
03-03-2010, 08:06 AM
From the old FAQ:

Q: Do you get a ranged or a melee attack after hitting and Dragging a model affected by Black Spot?
A: If the melee attack destroys the Black Spotted model, it gains an additional melee attack.

http://sites.privateerpress.com/FAQ/warmachine/faq.php?category=3#151

Ranged attacks generated Ranged attacks. Melee attacks generated melee attacks. Impact attacks generated nothing.

While this does not necessarily have any bearing on MK II, it DOES show intent. I have said all along that I don't believe the INTENT of black spot was to create ranged attacks from melee attacks and I don't think the wording "Can make an additional Ranged or Melee attack" is license to break the restrictions on different attack types in one activation. I feel the wording would have to be more specific (much like the current wording of Drag which specifies exactly what type of attack is made after your ranged attack, or assault which does the same thing). Intent does not always equal rules, but in this case I feel that the wording is ambiguous enough to go either way pending an official ruling.

As such I will go with the original ruling in all of my games until we get a ruling for MK II that says otherwise.

blue loki
03-03-2010, 09:03 AM
Be very careful with this old ruling. The designers had every opportunity in MKII to make the wording of the spell explicitly reflect this restriction, if indeed that was their intention for the use of the spell in MKII.

Going by RAW, I'd have to say that this position has actually been intentionally reversed. That or the old FAQ was forgotten during development. I'm much more likely to believe the former than the later.

Writer@Large
03-03-2010, 09:07 AM
One can only hope, BL.

Did anyone bring their Infernal-signal? A flare gun? Sould we just jump up and down a lot, waving our hands?

--W@L

Aldarionn
03-03-2010, 10:13 AM
Mayday Mayday, calling all Infernals! Ruling needed!
http://images.epilogue.net/users/boroszikszai/265_pic.jpg

Writer@Large
03-03-2010, 03:31 PM
LOL! :Buckler: to that pic. What's it from?

Aldarionn
03-03-2010, 03:59 PM
LOL! :Buckler: to that pic. What's it from?
Its an Infernal from World of Warcraft. They are demons, and warlocks can summon them as minions to fight for them for a shot time. I love the look on that guy's face :D

Malekhant
03-04-2010, 06:35 AM
I like mkI ruling, and that would probably hold true. But wouldn't it be nice to have a reason to use models with drag.

Writer@Large
03-05-2010, 05:54 AM
@Malekhant: Yeah, the MKI ruling will probably carry over, just because that's the easier route, but I still think that ruling is a poor one considering the wording of the rule.

--W@L

jonconcarne
03-05-2010, 02:21 PM
@Malekhant: Yeah, the MKI ruling will probably carry over, just because that's the easier route, but I still think that ruling is a poor one considering the wording of the rule.

--W@L

agreed. I don't really care as long as there's a ruling, but they really should reword it then so that it's only of the same type of attack. *shrug* roh well.

Aldarionn
03-05-2010, 06:33 PM
Yeah the wording is a bit ambiguous, I will admit, but I think the intent was for it to provide attacks of the same type.

jonconcarne
03-05-2010, 11:41 PM
Yeah the wording is a bit ambiguous, I will admit, but I think the intent was for it to provide attacks of the same type.

I believe you there just based on the Mk1 ruling. I never saw that one previously, so I was just going on RAW... I hate it when RAW =! actual ruling... roh well... I guess that's what errata is for. Here's hoping for an infernal ruling soon.

Macallan
04-13-2010, 02:58 PM
The model made a ranged attack as its combat action so it is be possible for it to make further ranged attacks. Drag allows melee attacks but does not forbid further ranged attacks.

Aldarionn
04-13-2010, 03:26 PM
The model made a ranged attack as its combat action so it is be possible for it to make further ranged attacks. Drag allows melee attacks but does not forbid further ranged attacks.


Wow, I can't say I saw that one coming.......

So follow up question for you while youre on this topic, does this ruling mean that Black Spot can allow a model to ignore the restriction between making melee attacks and ranged attacks in the same round?

For example, can eSkarre charge a model affected by Black Spot, kill it with an attack from Takkaryx, then use the Black Spot attack to fire off a shot with her Hand Cannon? Or is Drag the one exception to this rule because the initial attack was a ranged attack and drag specifically allows the model to make a melee attack after a ranged attack?

Cuagau
04-13-2010, 04:04 PM
I believe drag is the exception
If we swap in the words to Macallan's ruling we get;

Skarre made a melee attack with Takkaryx as its combat action so it is be possible for it to make further melee attacks. Drag allows melee attacks but does not forbid further ranged attacks.

Actually there is an inconsistency that is bolded;


The model made a ranged attack as its combat action so it is be possible for it to make further ranged attacks. Drag allows melee attacks but does not forbid further ranged attacks.

Tevesh
04-13-2010, 05:18 PM
So follow up question for you while youre on this topic, does this ruling mean that Black Spot can allow a model to ignore the restriction between making melee attacks and ranged attacks in the same round?

I think you should open a new thread and post this question, I doubt Macallan would revisit except to close this thread.

Macallan
04-13-2010, 05:54 PM
The additional attack you get from Black Spot must be of the same type than the initial attacks.

Aldarionn
04-13-2010, 08:56 PM
The additional attack you get from Black Spot must be of the same type than the initial attacks.

Thank you, that clarifies both issues quite nicely.

As far as Drag is concerned a model can fire a ranged attack, drag a model and kill it with the free melee attack, but since the initial attack was a ranged attack Black Spot generates a second ranged attack, which can again trigger drag and so on. Am I missing anything here?

Macallan
04-14-2010, 01:44 AM
Correct...