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RandomThoughts
12-23-2012, 02:52 AM
With effects such as Irusk's Inhospitable Ground, which makes part of the board rough terrain, when do players determine where the effect area starts? Can the other player just ask "Where does the effect start?" Do players determine where the effect starts when the player activates a unit that can move into the effect? That he declares will move into the affected zone? Or does he have to activate blind, move his model, then they messure the effect area and he has to move back a few inches because he moved to fast?

Or is this a courtesy thing, where the other player will ask the Irusk player to meassure his control zone and the Irusk player complies if he feels like it?

Thanks in advance.

RedWynd
12-23-2012, 05:57 AM
Ideally, the Irusk player should actively show you where the control area is. Not doing so would be equivalent to a player refusing to show you their model's cards or telling you their stats. I don't know if there is a rule that requires you to have knowledge of your opponent's models, but it is definitely good sportsmanship to do so, and to even offer other information when it is relevant.

If you are playing with someone who refuses to measure his control area in this situation ... call your game a draw (or even forfeit if it comes to it) and find another opponent.

Someone may quote you a rule eventually, but I have never needed a rule for this situation.

wazatdingder
12-23-2012, 07:25 AM
Ideally, the Irusk player should actively show you where the control area is. Not doing so would be equivalent to a player refusing to show you their model's cards or telling you their stats. I don't know if there is a rule that requires you to have knowledge of your opponent's models, but it is definitely good sportsmanship to do so, and to even offer other information when it is relevant.

If you are playing with someone who refuses to measure his control area in this situation ... call your game a draw (or even forfeit if it comes to it) and find another opponent.

Someone may quote you a rule eventually, but I have never needed a rule for this situation.

This is not really right and you will find yourself in a lot of "draws" if you hold this opinion. There is nothing that requires your opponent to show you this area until it is relevant. This means you declare what a model is doing and it is then checked to see if they will at any point be in that area. Your opponent does not have to share prior to you deciding what to do.

Deranith
12-23-2012, 07:54 AM
Measurements like this are done on a need-to-know basis. Much like measuring your opponent's melee range to see if you can shoot it while you are nearby, the measurement is done after declaration and your intent is announced. You don't need to know until you are attempting an action and applying relevant effects.

Also, this affects friendly things as well, for example if one of your units has a member that gets slammed to a position that may be out of command range, you are not able to measure command to see if he is still in until that unit's activation. Another example: You cannot measure extended control range unless you are allocating focus or have a control area effect that is relevant (like getting a bonus to attack rolls when making a swing).

For your specific situation, your opponent may show you his control area for Inhospitable Ground because he can measure his control area at any time (and it's the nice thing to do), but he is not required to until you declare your intent to move into the area.

DemonCalibre
12-23-2012, 11:01 PM
Ideally, the Irusk player should actively show you where the control area is. Not doing so would be equivalent to a player refusing to show you their model's cards or telling you their stats. I don't know if there is a rule that requires you to have knowledge of your opponent's models, but it is definitely good sportsmanship to do so, and to even offer other information when it is relevant.

If you are playing with someone who refuses to measure his control area in this situation ... call your game a draw (or even forfeit if it comes to it) and find another opponent.

Someone may quote you a rule eventually, but I have never needed a rule for this situation.

Except that this is not how you are suppose to do it.

How this situation works is you move your model, then he checks inhospitable, then you rewind your movement, as needed till your movement stops being illegal.

In practice though this system is incredibly clunky, which is why so few people do it.

Bishop84
12-24-2012, 01:25 AM
Also, this affects friendly things as well, for example if one of your units has a member that gets slammed to a position that may be out of command range, you are not able to measure command to see if he is still in until that unit's activation.

Or if the affected unit member at some point tries to make an attack, as grunts cannot make attacks while out of formation.

Deranith
12-24-2012, 06:07 AM
Except that this is not how you are suppose to do it.

How this situation works is you move your model, then he checks inhospitable, then you rewind your movement, as needed till your movement stops being illegal.

In practice though this system is incredibly clunky, which is why so few people do it.

I stand corrected. The point is, you can't check it until you've already committed to moving.


Or if the affected unit member at some point tries to make an attack, as grunts cannot make attacks while out of formation.

This is also correct.

yshsalas
12-24-2012, 03:55 PM
To get back to the original question, it is a combination of the last line in your paragraph, and the solitary line. You always activate blind, and then it is up to your opponent to measure and tell you when and if you are affected by his models. You are welcome to ask your opponent to show their control area, and many will, but they don't have to, and usually won't when it really matters.

Consider a situation like mage blight or lamentation where the cost of a spell is determined by whether or not your opponent is in your CTRL area. He must declare his intent to cast a spell before you measure and determine whether or not it costs double. It is not an ideal system, but the denial tactics in the game are partially negated if you can just premeasure everything. Also, you'll get VERY good at judging distances after playing for a few months.

UmbrellaCorp487
12-24-2012, 07:39 PM
The only exception to the need to know basis that my local meta has used is Cassius and his forest feat. You can see a forest as it is terrain and not a ground aura so for his feat the play must always measured when asked.

DemonCalibre
12-25-2012, 09:35 AM
The only exception to the need to know basis that my local meta has used is Cassius and his forest feat. You can see a forest as it is terrain and not a ground aura so for his feat the play must always measured when asked.

This is how I do it, I also believe the Witch Coven Feat has to be measured for you when you ask, as you just have to check LOS(which you can do at any time), to some model, and since the feat reduces your LOS, you would know if you were being effected.

In situations like the above i ask my opponent if they would like to check, if they say "No your out" I play it just like that. This is a bit tricky as occasionally and normally goes against my rules is "Players can't agree to cheat" Policy but it is also the cleanest way to handle the situation that ensures everyone is happy.

solkan
12-25-2012, 10:00 AM
The "for any reason" clause for measuring your control area does include reasons like "I feel like doing so" or "I feel like showing off what the control area is".

But both badgering your opponent into making the non-mandatory measurement, and whether you should make the mandatory measurement, are sportsmanship and not rules issues.
To quote Measuring Control Areas

You can measure the control area of your models at any time for any reason. Specifically, you can measure the distance from a model to any point within its control area at any time.

For control area effects against opposing models, you do not have to measure the control area until after the enemy model commits to its movement or action.

The not-an-exception to that rule is that you can check line of sight from one model to another at any time, and checking line of sight may force measurement in some cases.

Edit: Link to the thread for Cassius's forest for when that comes out of checking: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?132625-Cassius-feat-turn-and-showing-command-range&p=1763748&viewfull=1#post1763748

Wishing
12-26-2012, 11:00 AM
To try and summarise from what I remember of the last thread on the subject:

The player who controls the area effect can obviously choose to measure at any time (s)he wishes. The other player cannot request that the controlling player measures the area. However, the controlling player has to measure the area when it "becomes necessary". Generally this is when the opposing player moves a model and it looks like they are moving into the affected region - the opponent first commits to moving a full distance, then you measure the effect area to see whether they move into the effect or not, and lastly you move the activating models backwards if they were slowed down by the effect.

The big issue of uncertainty with these effects is that you basically have to eyeball and guess whether or not it is "necessary" to measure the area, and this is something you have to agree on with your opponent. The controlling player can't refuse to measure the area if it is necessary to do so, but the opposing player obviously has to move a model in such a way that measuring becomes relevant before it can be argued to be necessary to measure. Basically, if you are approaching an inhospitable ground effect and you want to know where it starts, the easiest way to do so is to activate a scouting model and move it towards the area. As long as you can agree with your opponent that it is plausible that the scout is covered by the effect, he has to measure it, at which point you can see where the effect starts for the purpose of moving the rest of your models.

DemonCalibre
12-26-2012, 05:05 PM
A question to the folks in this thread, asking for an opinion on the topic. Committing to a movement isn't really a clearly defined game term.

Lets say I am running a model with SPD6, so I can move 12, Move six strait at say Irusk with inhospitable ground. Commit to that portion of the movement(remember movement is done in pieces), ask you to measure, rewind that portion of the movement, then use the rest of my run to do something else?

Nothing in the section indicated that I had to commit to the entire movement of the model, just that particular movement . I would presume that section doesn't refer to normal movement, but any movement, otherwise how would it work against things like Righteous Vengeance and Sprint?

I am just curious what you guys think about that.

Bishop84
12-26-2012, 10:44 PM
Running doesn't require any sort of commitment, as you pointed out. Each increment of a run or walk is done individually. However, charges, slams, and tramples all require a model to pick a direction and move in that direction until they run out of movement or reach their target. This would require a stated commitment before measuring and moving.

Wishing
12-27-2012, 02:45 AM
Lets say I am running a model with SPD6, so I can move 12, Move six strait at say Irusk with inhospitable ground. Commit to that portion of the movement(remember movement is done in pieces), ask you to measure, rewind that portion of the movement, then use the rest of my run to do something else?

This is a good question. If normal movement is indeed done in pieces, then you do not commit to it. Then you can just keep nudging your model forward a fraction of an inch at a time, and your opponent has to measure whenever you finish a movement segment. I guess the question usually comes up with regards to charging, which is not done in pieces. I normally play that any movement has to be committed to fully in all cases, ie. when you start moving a model you state where you intend to move it to and you can't stop and change your mind halfway, but it wouldn't surprise me if this doesn't work as a hard rule and therefore isn't in the rulebook. Maybe this is one of those sportsmanship issues where you basically just have to agree with your opponent on a suitable way of resolving the interaction between the movement and the effect.

DemonCalibre
12-27-2012, 07:06 AM
This is a good question. If normal movement is indeed done in pieces, then you do not commit to it. Then you can just keep nudging your model forward a fraction of an inch at a time, and your opponent has to measure whenever you finish a movement segment. I guess the question usually comes up with regards to charging, which is not done in pieces. I normally play that any movement has to be committed to fully in all cases, ie. when you start moving a model you state where you intend to move it to and you can't stop and change your mind halfway, but it wouldn't surprise me if this doesn't work as a hard rule and therefore isn't in the rulebook. Maybe this is one of those sportsmanship issues where you basically just have to agree with your opponent on a suitable way of resolving the interaction between the movement and the effect.

Both Bishop, and Wishing's points are totally fair. It might be a sportsmanship issue, but I am not sure how I would resolve it. Charges/Slams/Tramples are pretty obvious, but what about things like advances/runs.

TheUnknownMercenary
12-27-2012, 07:19 AM
Measuring control areas and other area effects are done as needed.