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View Full Version : Happy Boxing Day! Dead horse: Defensive Formation (IFP)



SmellyTerror
12-26-2012, 04:14 PM
See, boxing day is called that because it's when you bring up old family feuds but everyone is too full of food to get really punchy. *

In the Khador forum because this seems less of a rules thing and more a "why Smelly can't understand basic concepts" thing, which the Khadorians have some experience dealing with.

Ye Olde Clarification: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?41880-Clarification-of-Defensive-Formation&highlight=Defensive+Formation


Replace the second sentence of Defensive Formation with the
following:
Immediately after models in this unit complete their actions this
turn, models in this unit other than this one can make a full
advance, any previous orders this unit was issued expire, and this
unit is affected by the Shield Wall order.


What this erratum does is move the DF from AFTER the activation to IN the activation. As a consequence, only the models that have not yet ended their activation can perform the move. This brings DF and Reform to the same mechanism.

A running model can't "complete its action". If you run you do not have an action. If you do not have one, you can't take it nor forfeit it, so you can't complete it. Same would happen to a model which fails a charge.

If at least one model in the unit takes or forfeits its action, the other models may use DF (except those who ran or failed a charge or anything similar). This last sentence is telling that you don't need to have each and every trooper completing or forfeiting an action to trigger DF.

The movements for DF happen after all the actions are completed, so it is:
action model A
action model B
action model C
and THEN the DF moves for A, B and C.

Examples:
Unit with troopers A, B and officer C who uses DF.

Example 1:
All make a full advance and then make their action. Then they all get to make their DF move, except the officer. All are affected by Shield Wall.

Example 2:
All run. None of them gets to make their DF move and none are affected by Shield Wall as no one in the unit completed its action and thus never triggered DF.

Example 3:
They get the charge order. A runs, B fails the charge, C makes a successful charge. No one gets to move as the only model that has not yet ended its activation is
the officer who is not allowed to move. But all are affected by Shield Wall.

Example 4:
A is knocked down and forfeits action to stand up. They get the charge order.
Due to this

Originally Posted by Prime, p. 46

If a model cannot run due to some effect and is required to run, instead of running it makes a full advance, then its activation immediately ends.
A makes a full advance and then ends its activation. B fails the charge, C runs. None of them gets to move, none are affected by Shield Wall.

The same basic principles apply to the Reform ability (Kossites, Striders with UA, etc.).


Someone else tried the ol' 18" move, and we ended up arguing (in a friendly manner, since I'm so nice) for a really long time. The problem here is that the explanation is contradictory.

(Personally, I think the issue is just problem 2, and that we need to move each model immediately after their combat action, before moving to the next model. It's the only way the wording seems to make sense).


Problem 1: As per pg 42 of Prime: Troopers do not activate individually. Instead the entire unit activates at once. When a unit begins its activation, every trooper activates.

So every trooper activates.

But when does a trooper-model's activation END (apart from failed charges and runs, which are specifically dealt with)? There's nothing in the Unit bit on page 42/43, but it is described for independant models just above on page 42: After resolving its action, the model then ends its activation.

If the Defensive Formation rule change, as described, is meant to put the DF move INSIDE the activation: "What this erratum does is move the DF from AFTER the activation to IN the activation. As a consequence, only the models that have not yet ended their activation can perform the move. This brings DF and Reform to the same mechanism." ...then there's no way you can take all your combat actions, then move, because the folk who took an action are now out of activation.

On the other hand, if you mean the UNIT'S activation (because, note well, the unit's activation causes the models to activate, but again, there's no indication of when a unit's activation ends) then everyone (but the officer) gets the move, becuase the UNIT is still in activation...


Problem 2: The infernal says both:

As a consequence, only the models that have not yet ended their activation can perform the move.
AND

The movements for DF happen after all the actions are completed, so it is: action model A action model B action model C and THEN the DF moves for A, B and C.

Now, if we say that models really do end their activation after their action, then the only model that can move is the last one to activate - right? The rest are all out of activation.

OR does the rule say that after all models move, and an individual model then takes an action, the model then takes the DF move before going on to the next model's action? That is, the second quote is wrong, in that it'd be A - action, A - DF move (end that model's activation); B - action, B - DF move (end that model's activation)... That seems to be one way to read the rule as written: "Immediately after models in this unit complete their actions this turn, models in this unit other than this one can make a full advance". And that makes sense, I think.

If, on the other hand, the entire unit ends its activation together, the second quote does make sense, but then the first quote doesn't really, as no models have ended activation (seeing as the unit hasn't).


Problem 3: ...is that the wording itself is really ambiguous.


Immediately after models in this unit complete their actions this turn, models in this unit other than this one can make a full advance...

Ok, so 8 guys ran, two took an action. Now what? "Immediately after models in this unit complete their actions this turn..." Yes. I've done that. Some models in my unit have completed an action. So: "...models in this unit other than this one can make a full advance...". Ok, so THIS model is a model in the unit, so I'll move it. So is THIS one, and so on.

What there forces it to be IN activation? "Immediately after all models in the unit have acted" seems a pretty clear-cut location in space and time, yes? So, that pre-requisite being satisfied, why can't I move to the second clause? Why isn't that extra move an out-of-activation move? Only, yeah, I've added the word "all" - but I dunno if that's a great stretch. Certainly the infernal reply above states that DF only kicks in after all models have take their action.

If the text of an effect tells me to move a model, I move it. If the model is not in-activation, then it's an out-of-activation move. So with the rule as written, why don't I move all the models out of activation?

Unless, as I said in Problem 2, the rule is meant to have you take the DF move inside the activation of each model, which not only contradicts the second infernal quote in Roblem 2, it significantly nerfs DF.


(I should note that most (all?) of these issues were raised in the linked thread, and were apparently answered, but I couldn't work out what the answer was).

(* Not really - but no-one really knows why it's called boxing day, so I figure my made-up answer is perfectly valid).
:)

solkan
12-26-2012, 04:31 PM
Do you have a question about how the rule works, or are you complaining about how it works now?

Sir Biscuit
12-26-2012, 05:09 PM
He's asking how it works. Like, how does it function at all? Frankly, I'd also appreciate an explanation, as the ruling is insanely confusing and contradictory in a lot of ways.

I hate how people point to the post he's talking about like it clears anything up, because it really doesn't.

Mr. Golden Deal
12-26-2012, 05:48 PM
He's asking how it works. Like, how does it function at all? Frankly, I'd also appreciate an explanation, as the ruling is insanely confusing and contradictory in a lot of ways.

I hate how people point to the post he's talking about like it clears anything up, because it really doesn't.
What's so hard to understand? The main thrust of the errata is that you can no longer run 12" and then Shield Wall another 6", and you also can't move if you've failed your charge (or had to sacrifice your action). Just because the same handful of people keep complaining about how difficult to understand it is, it's really not.

Sheer_Falacy
12-26-2012, 06:46 PM
(or had to sacrifice your action)

Forfeiting your action still triggers effects that trigger after you complete your action.

The answer is, units do activate as a group, but they end their activations one at a time. Note that just because you've done your movement and action doesn't mean your activation is over - this can be obvious if the unit has something it can do at any time (like a minifeat) - the UA can't use the minifeat after they run because their activation has ended, but everyone in the unit could walk up, attack, and then, once everyone has gone, use the minifeat.

And yeah, the phrasing isn't ideal on the "after models in this unit complete their actions this
turn, models in this unit..." - it should probably be something like "after models in this unit complete their actions this turn, models in this unit that completed their actions..." - otherwise, yeah, it seems like it lets everyone move.

TheUnknownMercenary
12-26-2012, 07:15 PM
See, boxing day is called that because it's when you bring up old family feuds but everyone is too full of food to get really punchy. *
(* Not really - but no-one really knows why it's called boxing day, so I figure my made-up answer is perfectly valid).
:)

Next time one question per thread, it in the rules for the rules forum. This should help you clarify your first question:


Boxing Day is observed every year on December 26. Before it took on its feistier name, the holiday was known as St. Stephen’s Day.
*
Many historians think the holiday’s name is derived from the church practice of opening alms boxes the day after Christmas and distributing money to the poor.
*
Historically, British employers followed the church’s lead by sliding workers and servants gifts or cash on December 26. Merchants tossed servants a few coins, too, for bringing in a household’s business.
*
Why give Christmas gifts the day after Christmas? Because the servants spent Christmas and Christmas Eve scrambling to pull of big holiday dinners for their masters.
*
Ireland sometimes refers to December 26 as Wren Day, a nod to an old tradition in which poor children would kill a wren, then sell the feathers to neighbors for good luck. In today’s celebrations, the wren is fake.
*
Despite the name, British observations of Boxing Day involve no fisticuffs. For patricians, however, another sport rules the day: fox hunting.
*
In other countries, Boxing Day celebrations are more literal. Many former British colonies in Africa and the Caribbean celebrate the holiday with prizefighting events.
*
Like most Western holidays, Boxing Day has become pretty commercialized. With big sales and bigger crowds, Boxing Day is the British answer to Black Friday

Hope that helps :DmgType-Cold: and Happy Boxing Day to you too

Next time if you have a rules question, please state it clearly.