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OrsusSmash
01-18-2013, 12:25 PM
Clarification:

If I successfully attack with the Marauder's Combo Smite *Attack against a model that cannot be slammed (eg. a colossal), do I still get to make the damage roll? The way it is worded is "target model is slammed d6" directly away from this model and suffers a damage roll..."

Because of the "and", I'm assuming you have to slam the model in order for them to be damaged. So an attack like Combo Smite wouldn't do anything to a model immune to being slammed. Is this correct?

Thanks!

DemonCalibre
01-18-2013, 12:29 PM
I believe models that can't be slamed(Not aren't moved by slams, but can not be slamed)

That nothing happens, the ability doesn't work.

solkan
01-18-2013, 12:37 PM
The "and suffers a damage roll" bit in the Marauder's Combo Smite is not specifying an independent effect. It's altering part of the rule for being slammed.

Being slammed causes a model to move, suffer slam damage and then get knocked down. The Marauder's Combo Smite changes the POW of the slam damage to STR+2*POW instead of just STR.

scruff
01-18-2013, 12:39 PM
You haven't slammed the model, you have combo-smited it.
Damage is caused by the combo-smite not the slam.

In my head anyway...

solkan
01-18-2013, 01:20 PM
You haven't slammed the model, you have combo-smited it.

The Combo Smite effect says:

Make a melee attack. On a hit, instead of making a normal damage roll the target model is slammed d6" directly away from this model and suffers a damage roll with POW equal to the STR of this model plus twice the POW of this weapon. The POW of collateral damage is equal to this model's STR.

As I stated before, the rules for being slammed in the rulebook explain what happens when one model slams another.

Being Slammed
A slammed model is moved d6" directly away from its attacker and is then knocked down.
Skipping a sentence, then the rules say

It then suffers slam damage as described below.
And then there's all of the stuff about collateral damage, under the rules for Being Slammed.

The model on the receiving end of the Combo Smite is slammed, and you use the rules in Being Slammed to process that slam, as modified by the other provisions of Combo Smite. That's why the rule says "is slammed" instead of "is pushed" or "is moved".

For a previous discussion reaching this conclusion: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?89524-Xerxis-double-home-run-(*attack)&p=1200910&viewfull=1#post1200910

scruff
01-18-2013, 01:48 PM
But the damage is specified in Combo-Smite....

It could also be argued that the damage is in addition to the slam damage
Combo-smite states that the model is slammed (therefore all the damage and effects of a slam) AND suffers a damage roll etc.
So the target takes the slam damage and takes a damage roll of P+S 20 etc... but I suspect this is not the intention.

Bishop84
01-18-2013, 02:00 PM
Honestly solkan, I'm not sure which side of the argument you're on...

Warfrog
01-18-2013, 02:13 PM
But the damage is specified in Combo-Smite....

It could also be argued that the damage is in addition to the slam damage
Combo-smite states that the model is slammed (therefore all the damage and effects of a slam) AND suffers a damage roll etc.
So the target takes the slam damage and takes a damage roll of P+S 20 etc... but I suspect this is not the intention.

I suspect this is not the intent too but very valid argument when compared to momentum from the Banshee


Instead of suffering a normal damage roll, a small- or medium-based, non-incorporeal model hit by this attack is slammed d3" directly away from this model. The POW of the slam damage roll is equal to the POW of this weapon. The POW of collateral damage is equal to the POW of this weapon...


I realized momentum is on ranged attacks so it already way different but explicitly stats what the slam damage roll POW will be. Combo-smite makes no mention of it at all just says slammed and suffers. When your slammed you suffer damage "as described below". Marauders card is not below that line in the rule book.

EDIT: Just for the record I realize the original scenario was about hitting a colossal/garg and the momentum will just be a regular attack against one of them. I am just pointing it out for the reasons above.

MaGoff
01-18-2013, 06:51 PM
The way I'm reading it is that the Colossal will not be moved by the Combo Smite but it will still suffer the damage.

DemonCalibre
01-18-2013, 11:05 PM
Can not be slamed means slams can't happen to them, no damage no nothing.

You will notice a subtle difference as some rules say can not be moved by slams.

John of Arc
01-19-2013, 03:14 AM
I combo smite a colossal. Them I go down the check list of what happens:

1) It is slammed: false
2) It suffers a damage roll: true

By its wording, that's how I think it works. I don't see any wording which states that the damage roll is tied to the slam itself; it appears to be a damage roll completely separate of the slam. In fact, it would appear that a slammable target is slammed (taking the normal slam damage) and suffers an additional POW 20 damage roll, though I'm fairly certain that's not the intent of the ability.

Tolteks
01-19-2013, 04:01 AM
so lets assume the immunity would be fire and the rule said this:

Make a melee attack. On a hit, instead of making a normal damage roll the target model suffers a fire damage roll with POW equal to the STR of this model plus twice the POW of this weapon. The POW of collateral damage is equal to this model's STR.

wouldn't work now would it, so no slammy no effect, especially since this entire attack implies getting damage from being slammed and you guys say ok I hit the empire state building, obviously I can't knock it over, but it still takes damage as if a wreckingball hits it at top speed...

sathoon
01-19-2013, 07:11 AM
I know fluff =/= actual gameplay rules, but when the marauder can smash fortress walls, gates ("marauder at the gates!") and even nearly accidentally bring down a quarry and yet not even put a dent in a colossal leg, you know you've got problems.

scruff
01-19-2013, 08:53 AM
so lets assume the immunity would be fire and the rule said this:

Make a melee attack. On a hit, instead of making a normal damage roll the target model suffers a fire damage roll with POW equal to the STR of this model plus twice the POW of this weapon. The POW of collateral damage is equal to this model's STR.

The bold does not feature in the combo smite wording. No where does it say instead of slam damage - hence the argument for a slam damage roll AND a S+2P damage roll....

rydiafan
01-19-2013, 09:22 AM
The way it is worded is "target model is slammed d6" directly away from this model and suffers a damage roll..."

Because of the "and", I'm assuming you have to slam the model in order for them to be damaged.

I see no reason to make this assumption. Two things are happening to the target model. It is being slammed, AND it is taking damage. Nothing says one has to happen for the other to happen.

If somebody who is immune to poison is poisoned AND shot, that bullet doesn't care whether the poison worked.

hamsandwich50
01-19-2013, 09:33 AM
heres is the full wording of combo smite so we can all see it.


Combo Smite (*Attack)- Make a melee attack. On a hit, instead of making a normal damage roll the target model is slammed d6'' directly away from this model and suffers a damage roll with POW equal to the STR of this model plus twice the POW of this weapon. The POW of collateral damage is equal to this model's STR.

So the "instead of making a normal damage roll" part of the attack is adding the slam but it does not specify that the damage is specifically slam damage but that the target model is slammed and takes a damage roll. I don't see any connection to the two other than they both happen from the attack.

Kurgash
01-19-2013, 10:25 AM
I hope they suffer the damage roll. Used Xerxis' combo smite a few times to take down gargossals, I'd hate to think I cheated my opponent after.

Valander
01-20-2013, 03:58 PM
"Cannot be slammed" means exactly that: the model cannot be slammed. This includes damage from the slam, which is what Combo Smite does. So, a model which cannot be slammed does not get slammed from Critical Smite, which means no move, no damage.

Note the difference between "cannot be slammed" and "cannot be moved by a slam," however; in the later case, damage would still be applied.

Read Combo Smite like so:

Make a melee attack. On a hit, instead of making a normal damage roll the target model is slammed d6˝ directly away from this model and suffers a damage roll with POW equal to the STR of this model plus twice the POW of this weapon. The POW of collateral damage is equal to this modelʼs STR.All of the blue text is the "instead of making a normal damage roll."

OrsusSmash
01-20-2013, 08:50 PM
I thought so, but wanted to make sure. Thanks very much! :)