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Leo_the_Rat
03-23-2013, 11:23 AM
Can a Gargantuan make a trample attack? The rules say that they can make any power attack available to warbeasts however trample has the stipulation of "heavy warbeasts". Since Gargantuans are not heavy warbeasts can they still use the trample rules?

SageofLodoss
03-23-2013, 12:22 PM
They are intended to be able to Trample, yes.

Mr. Golden Deal
03-23-2013, 01:11 PM
Can a Gargantuan make a trample attack? The rules say that they can make any power attack available to warbeasts however trample has the stipulation of "heavy warbeasts". Since Gargantuans are not heavy warbeasts can they still use the trample rules?
"Any power attack available to warbeasts" = "any power attack available to any warbeast" aka can make power attacks available to heavies too.

Leo_the_Rat
03-24-2013, 04:25 AM
The quote from the rulebook is "A collosal can make all the power attacks available to a warjack."

This is not the same as available to any warjack. "A warjack" is a generic term. The power attack rules specify that only heavy warjacks can trample. So it is something to akin to the squares and rectangle situation. A collosal can do whatever a normal warjack can does not necessarily mean it can do what only a heavy warjack can do. If a theme list said that a caster could only use heavy warjacks then it would exclude collosals since they are a different set of warjack than heavy warjack or light warjack. Since the rules say that a more specific rule overrides a general rule you would have to deny the collosal the ability to trample.

For the record I agree that collosals should be able to trample (RAI) but that the rules do not allow it as they are written (RAW).

vintersbastard
03-24-2013, 04:34 AM
The power attack rules specify that only heavy warjacks can trample. So it is something to akin to the squares and rectangle situation. That's interesting: the section dealing with Trample specifically states that light warjacks cannot trample (cf. Prime, p. 55), but doesn't limit it to heavy warjacks; only the list on p. 51 does.

Leo_the_Rat
03-24-2013, 05:37 AM
Page 55 still does not say that Collosals can trample it only reiterates that Light warjacks can not (per p 51).

MagnustheJust
03-24-2013, 06:36 AM
Colossals are classified as huge based warjacks. Since they are not light warjacks, why would they - barring not enough room to park their fat arses after they move - be able to make tramples? http://www.metal-archives.com/board/images/smilies/o_O.gif

Gargossals can trample, believe me. I saw two Press Gangers do it to each others' armies in back to back turns yesterday...

Leo_the_Rat
03-24-2013, 01:53 PM
They wouldn't be able to trample because the rules don't allow them to do so. That's what my question is all about. Just because press gangers do something does not make it right. There are plenty of times that people with PG in front of their names give an incorrect answer (no offense meant to any PG).

Page 51 of Prime limits trample attacks to heavy warjacks. Collosals are not heavy warjacks.

Edwars
03-24-2013, 03:03 PM
They wouldn't be able to trample because the rules don't allow them to do so. That's what my question is all about. Just because press gangers do something does not make it right. There are plenty of times that people with PG in front of their names give an incorrect answer (no offense meant to any PG).

Page 51 of Prime limits trample attacks to heavy warjacks. Collosals are not heavy warjacks.

the rule you are refering to does not limit tramples to heavy warjacks, but rather excludes light warjacks from making them.

there is a subtle but important difference. and thus colossals/gargantauns can indeed trample

Leo_the_Rat
03-24-2013, 03:13 PM
No, the rule is on page 51. The "no light warjacks" is in the explanation of how trampling works. Page 51 explicitly states that only heavy warjacks have the ability to trample. Page 55 merely restates that light warjacks do not have the ability to trample.

loramer
03-24-2013, 07:01 PM
Some quotes to help sort this out:


Prime pg 51:
...Warjacks can make power attacks as indicated by the following list.
- All warjacks:head-butt, push and slam
- Heavy warjacks:trample
...


Prime pg 55:
Light warjacks cannot make trample power attacks.



gargantuans pg 18:
Gargantuan power attacks
A gargantuan can make all the power attacks available to a warbeast along with two additional power attacks available only to gargantuans: power attack and sweep

(all bold emphasis mine)

Leo is right.
As written, gargantuans/colossals cannot make trample attacks. They are able to make all the power attacks available to a warbeast/warjack (this would be headbutt, push, slam) as well as power attack and sweep.

As written, the only models that can make trample attacks are heavy beasts/jacks and models with a special rule allowing a trample, like epic Lylyth.

Edwars
03-24-2013, 09:25 PM
Reading from Warroom (which is rule legal)

from Power Attacks.

All warjacks/beasts:headbutt push slam
Heavy warjacks/warbeasts, Colossals and Gargantuans: trample
Open fist: throw
Two open fists: double handed throw.

emphasis mine

I think it is simply a matter of the prime book being older than gangantuans and colossals.

Innominandum
03-24-2013, 09:28 PM
Strictly speaking, RAW, yeah trample is not an option to a gargantuan or colossal. I sense an incoming errata on that (or an infernal ruling to change it).

vintersbastard
03-25-2013, 03:54 AM
gargantuans pg 18:
Gargantuan power attacks
A gargantuan can make all the power attacks available to a warbeast Well, I think this sentence can be read as meaning "power attacks available to any kind of warbeast", which would include trample.

Poppins
03-25-2013, 05:50 AM
Can a heavy warbeast trample? - Yes
Is a heavy warbeast a warbeast? - Yes
Can a gargantuan make all power attacks a warbeast can? - Yes

Thusly; can a gargantuan trample? - Yes

Largi
03-25-2013, 06:06 AM
This is actually listed in warroom

"-Heavy Warjacks/warbeasts, Colossals, and Gargantuans: Trample"

Pinegulf
03-25-2013, 06:18 AM
Interesting... Warroom contradicting Prime(al)... One does think this needs infernal referencing or errata. (Although, it's pretty obvious what it's going to be.)

Leo_the_Rat
03-25-2013, 06:47 AM
Well, I think this sentence can be read as meaning "power attacks available to any kind of warbeast", which would include trample.

There is a big differenced between "a warbeast" (what the rule says) and "any warbeast" (what you are saying).
There is no disputing that Gargantuans are warbeasts. However, they are neither light nor heavy warbeasts.
Can a warbeast (the general term) make power attacks? Yes.
Which power attacks are available to them? Page 51 of Primal says that all warbeast can make head butt, push and slam attacks. It then goes on to say that only heavy warbeasts can make trample attacks. So, by RAW, a warbeast can make head butts, pushes and, slams but only a heavy warbeast may trample.

Again, I agree that Gargantuans should be able to trample but RAW says that they can't.

Largi
03-25-2013, 06:54 AM
Primal e.t.c where all written before Huge Bases existed.
I would ideally need to check the Colossals/Gargantuans books to see if there is any indication in there that they can and thus newer rule overwrites older rule.

MagnustheJust
03-25-2013, 08:37 AM
Primal e.t.c where all written before Huge Bases existed.
I would ideally need to check the Colossals/Gargantuans books to see if there is any indication in there that they can and thus newer rule overwrites older rule.

Ask, and ye shall receive!!

Prime/Primal MK-II is not being contradicted. Also, the Gargossals were released after the rule books, but were given additional rules :

Colossals, page 22 :

Colossal Power Attacks - Colossals can make all the power attacks available to a warjacks.

Gargantuans, page 18 :

Gargantuan Power Attacks - Gargantuans can make all the power attacks available to a warjacks.


Power Attacks - Prime MK-II, page 51 and Primal MK-II, page 51 - both only list light warjacks as unable to trample...

Colossal = huge warjack

Gargantuan = huge warbeast

Since they are not light warbeasts or warjacks, they can trample.

Largi
03-25-2013, 08:42 AM
Thanks Magnus,
At this point i'm very close to bringing a copy of Prime/Primal into work to live on my desk for these forums xD

Leo_the_Rat
03-25-2013, 08:56 AM
Magnus- once again you have mis-stated the book. Page 51 of both books state that only heavies may trample. On page 55 it just reiterates that statement by reminding the readers that lights may not make trample attacks. There is a world of difference between what you are stating and what is written.

Valander
03-25-2013, 09:04 AM
Checking. I am 99.99% sure of answer, and locking now because we've had enough back and forth.

Valander
03-25-2013, 09:37 AM
Answer:

Gargantuans and Colossals can trample.