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knight_actual
04-10-2013, 09:12 AM
A whole unit of Devil Dogs led by Murdoc Assaults.

The whole unit moves.

1.) Can/must a member of the unit make its charge attack before their fellows make their assault gun shots?

2.) Is there an opportunity here for Murdoch to use his go to ground after the charge movement, but before his shot and his activation ends due to failed charge?

vintersbastard
04-10-2013, 09:17 AM
A whole unit of Devil Dogs led by Murdoc Assaults.

The whole unit moves.

1.) Can/must a member of the unit make its charge attack before their fellows make their assault gun shots?All of them have to take their assault shots before the first one can make his charge attack.


2.) Is there an opportunity here for Murdoch to use his go to ground after the charge movement, but before his shot and his activation ends due to failed charge?No, assault only allows for the shot, but nothing else (cf. here (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?62344-Failed-charge-assault-and-casting-spells&p=853561#post853561)for warcaster spellcasting).

PS: I'll look for the relevant rulings.
PPS: solkan's got the other one.

solkan
04-10-2013, 09:19 AM
1. Assault shots happen before the combat action.
Reference: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?96081-Assault-and-Unit-Formation&p=1287686&viewfull=1#post1287686

quindraco
04-10-2013, 09:19 AM
A whole unit of Devil Dogs led by Murdoc Assaults.

The whole unit moves.

1.) Can/must a member of the unit make its charge attack before their fellows make their assault gun shots?

2.) Is there an opportunity here for Murdoch to use his go to ground after the charge movement, but before his shot and his activation ends due to failed charge?

You can use a minifeat between moving and shooting, which Murdoch's go to ground is. "Any time" can't interrupt movement, which you're not doing, or interrupt attacking, which you're not doing - you're using it after movement but before an attack you can legally make, which is fine.

Mod_Neldar
04-10-2013, 09:34 AM
You can use a minifeat between moving and shooting, which Murdoch's go to ground is. "Any time" can't interrupt movement, which you're not doing, or interrupt attacking, which you're not doing - you're using it after movement but before an attack you can legally make, which is fine.

He's specifically asking about a failed charge.

If you fail an assault charge, you get to make your shot but nothing else before your activation ends.

knight_actual
04-10-2013, 09:37 AM
1. Assault shots happen before the combat action.
Reference: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?96081-Assault-and-Unit-Formation&p=1287686&viewfull=1#post1287686


Looked at reference - sees that the way to resolve indicated by Valander is consistent with every one making the shot first THEN every one making the melee attacks. Do not see where the assault shots are made outside of combat action.

Trying to boost Devil Dogs' stock: Assault specifically calls for "As part of a charge, after moving but before making its charge attack, an affected model can make one ranged attack targeting..."

This seems to permit a model by model resolution of the shots and the charge attacks, as long as each model makes their ranged attack BEFORE they make their own melee attacks.

Noting that language that would require a unit wide shot-before-melee would call for all affected modelS to make THEIR ranged attackS...etc.

I have also heard from some that model by model resolution is required - but that seems absurd in the context of CMA capable assaulters.

solkan
04-10-2013, 09:41 AM
Please read Valander's post where he says that the models perform those steps in lock step, and tell me where that allows you to perform the steps out of order.

Edit: But for a more direct answer, here's one of them: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?54967-Complicated-question-on-completing-charges&p=756857&viewfull=1#post756857

The assualt ranged attack happens after movement but before the combat action but it is not triggered by movement. Dark Sentinel triggers from the movement. Dark Sentinel goes off before Assault.

Edit #2: See also https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?50443-Assault-ranged-attack-timing&highlight=assault

quindraco
04-10-2013, 09:51 AM
He's specifically asking about a failed charge.

If you fail an assault charge, you get to make your shot but nothing else before your activation ends.

This is incorrect. You can use any "at any time during activation" ability at any time other than interrupting movement or action[1], provided it is still your activation. Murdoch is in such a state after failing his charge but before making his assault shot, which means he can legally use his at any time ability.

[1] Specific action, not the entire action step, which you can interrupt. For example, you can use one between taking two initials, but not after an attack roll and before the damage roll.

knight_actual
04-10-2013, 10:01 AM
Referenced purple seems to be not on point - or ambiguous. I would prefer a non-ambiguous resolution of the issue.

quindraco
04-10-2013, 10:11 AM
Referenced purple seems to be not on point - or ambiguous. I would prefer a non-ambiguous resolution of the issue.

Which one? Solkan's linked Infernal reference should completely answer your first question, which I'll recap here:
1) Everyone moves.
2) Everyone shoots.
3) Everyone swings.

vintersbastard
04-10-2013, 10:44 AM
This is incorrect. You can use any "at any time during activation" ability at any time other than interrupting movement or action[1], provided it is still your activation. Murdoch is in such a state after failing his charge but before making his assault shot, which means he can legally use his at any time ability.
Please see the ruling I linked to in post #2. The only thing happening when failing a charge with assault is the shot.

Valander
04-10-2013, 10:54 AM
Please see the ruling I linked to in post #2. The only thing happening when failing a charge with assault is the shot.
This is correct. Normally, when you fail a charge your activation immediately ends after completing movement. Assault has specific directive telling you to make the ranged attack anyway, but that is all it allows.

quindraco
04-10-2013, 11:12 AM
This is correct. Normally, when you fail a charge your activation immediately ends after completing movement. Assault has specific directive telling you to make the ranged attack anyway, but that is all it allows.

What exactly is the rules override here? That is, the rulebook explicitly states that an "at any time during activation" ability can be used at any time during activation that does not interrupt something "atomic" (not a game term, but I forget the exact wording), such as movement or casting a spell. You're amending this to not cover assault shots for *all* "at any time" abilities, correct? So e.g. you cannot use your feat between moving and shooting (e.g. for pIrusk), you cannot cast spells, you cannot use an imprint, and so on. Right? Or is this only for "minifeats", like Murdoch's Go To Ground?

Just want to get it right for the wiki - trying to understand, not to argue.

Valander
04-10-2013, 11:16 AM
What exactly is the rules override here? That is, the rulebook explicitly states that an "at any time during activation" ability can be used at any time during activation that does not interrupt something "atomic" (not a game term, but I forget the exact wording), such as movement or casting a spell. You're amending this to not cover assault shots for *all* "at any time" abilities, correct? So e.g. you cannot use your feat between moving and shooting (e.g. for pIrusk), you cannot cast spells, you cannot use an imprint, and so on. Right? Or is this only for "minifeats", like Murdoch's Go To Ground?

Just want to get it right for the wiki - trying to understand, not to argue.
Read what I wrote again. I answered specifically for the case of failed charges.

Mod_Neldar
04-10-2013, 11:50 AM
@quindraco

When a charge fails the activation immediately ends, right? This means you can't do anything after the movement. Anytime abilities don't get around this.

If you don't use the anytime ability before making your charge move and you fail the charge (end movement without your target in melee range) your activation immediately ends due to the failed charge. When this happens no spells or anytime abilities can be used after the movement and before the end of activation.

Assault grants a specific exception to the immediate ending of the activation--the shot can be made but nothing else.

quindraco
04-10-2013, 11:51 AM
Read what I wrote again. I answered specifically for the case of failed charges.

Wait. So you're saying Murdoch can minifeat before the shot if the charge was successful?

Same question as before, but thanks for clarifying that I was misunderstanding. So, for failed assault charges, does your ruling extend to all at any time during activation abilities?

knight_actual
04-10-2013, 12:07 PM
Difference is - is the ONLY way to do assault all shoot then all swing. Or is it also permissible for every one to also shoot then swing in their own sequence.

Seems to me there is no question that the first way is correct. Question now is- is the second method ALSO correct since it seems to also comply with the wording's requirements and that issue doesn't seem to have been addressed yet.

I have been playing with my assault guys always with every one shoots then every one swings. But at this time believe that the other method also complies with the rules.

vintersbastard
04-10-2013, 01:39 PM
Wait. So you're saying Murdoch can minifeat before the shot if the charge was successful?Sure, nothing prevents him from doing that.


So, for failed assault charges, does your ruling extend to all at any time during activation abilities?That should be correct, considering that the original linked ruling was about spellcasting, and has now officially been extended to mini-feats.



Difference is - is the ONLY way to do assault all shoot then all swing. Or is it also permissible for every one to also shoot then swing in their own sequence.

Seems to me there is no question that the first way is correct. Question now is- is the second method ALSO correct since it seems to also comply with the wording's requirements and that issue doesn't seem to have been addressed yet.

I have been playing with my assault guys always with every one shoots then every one swings. But at this time believe that the other method also complies with the rules.Please see the thread solkan linked in post #3. Only when all assault shots are done can the first one take his charge attack.

Zakmahr
04-10-2013, 01:49 PM
Knight - Solkan also linked TheUnknownMercenary's explanation in post #7. The assault shots happen prior to the combat action. The shots have to be resolved before anyone in the unit makes their charge attack.

So everyone moves, everyone takes their assault shot, then everyone who successfully charged makes their charge attack. It is not done on a per model basis.

knight_actual
04-10-2013, 02:07 PM
I do not see the word "only" appearing in the cite from post #3 as it pertains the issue we're discussing.

As for the UnknownMercenary's explanation- I agree that the shot happens before combat action. However, in that particular example there was only 1 combat action being discussed- that of the Reckoner. In a unit of troop, however, there are MANY combat actions all taking place at different times. So each model would still be able to make their own combat actions in sequence - the requirement that the shot happens outside of combat action before each model's combat action still met even if we permit shots to come after other model's combat action.

I think this thread comes closest to answering the question - but doesn't actually do so - no closed, and no answer. https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?50443-Assault-ranged-attack-timing&highlight=assault

bStyker
04-10-2013, 02:53 PM
Wait... so clarify this for me: Why would you want to use Murdoch's mini-feat after a successful charge anyway? I guess if you were in the target's back arc and not engaged (or something comparable) it would work, otherwise according to his mini-feat all the effects would end before you could take advantage of them because they only last "...until they move, are placed, or are engaged..."

... or I guess it just wouldn't apply to Murdoch as your other models could have just ran around to advantageous positions? Hmm... this ability is seeming more lack-luster...

vintersbastard
04-10-2013, 02:56 PM
I do not see the word "only" appearing in the cite from post #3 as it pertains the issue we're discussing.

As for the UnknownMercenary's explanation- ...
Huh? solkan first linked to a ruling by Valander. Since you apparently cannot be bothered to follow links provided by us, I'll just repost it here:

The correct order of resolution would be:

1) Receive Assault order
2) Activate model (grunt or leader, doesn't matter), declaring charge target and move.
3) Check if failed/successful charge.
4) Repeat 2,3 until all models have made their moves.
5) Resolve assault shots. At this point, you would determine if models are out of formation; if they are, no assault shot at all since being out of formation prevents any attacks. Even models that failed their charge must still make the assault shot, if not out of formation.
6) Make charge attacks with models that didn't fail their charges.
The relevant parts are steps 5 and 6. There's no choice involved whatsoever.




Wait... so clarify this for me: Why would you want to use Murdoch's mini-feat after a successful charge anyway?

Tactics discussions don't belong here; please keep them to the relevant factions forums.

TheUnknownMercenary
04-10-2013, 03:31 PM
A whole unit of Devil Dogs led by Murdoc Assaults.

The whole unit moves.

1.) Can/must a member of the unit make its charge attack before their fellows make their assault gun shots?

2.) Is there an opportunity here for Murdoch to use his go to ground after the charge movement, but before his shot and his activation ends due to failed charge?

1) The unit goes through the steps of activation at the same time. All models in the unit have to move, then all the models get to make their assualt shot and after that the models can make their charge attack.

2) The only thing that can be done after a failed charge, in this case, is make the assualt shot. This is because of the Assault ability, which allows the model to make the ranged attack before it's activation ends. Assualt does not state it can do anything else but the ranged attack.

Gabbi
04-11-2013, 01:35 AM
maybe a slightly OT but just wondering... is the assault shot following a failed charge considered into the activation of the model, or outside it (since its activation is endend at the end of the movement, when charge failed) ?
This could be relevant in case of a Carnivean spray, because if the attack is considered to be made outside activation, the beast couldn't be forced to boost, right?

[EDIT]
I have to get into the habit of checking book/cards before asking stupid questions -_-;
Assault rulings says: "If the target is not in melee range after moving, this model can make the Assault ranged attack BEFORE its activation ends".