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Jamie P
03-22-2010, 03:05 AM
Quite simply does the beat-back animus work on ranged weapons like a Drakes Gaze attack or the Titan Canoneer.

Further more if this attack hits more than one model does the model move 1 inch per attack, or 1 inch per model hit by the attack?

FerrusManus
03-22-2010, 03:33 AM
Quite simply does the beat-back animus work on ranged weapons like a Drakes Gaze attack or the Titan Canoneer.

Further more if this attack hits more than one model does the model move 1 inch per attack, or 1 inch per model hit by the attack?

1st question - yes it works, Decimator even has beat Back on his ranged weapon normally.

2st - not 100% sure but form my interpretation but I'm think you can push only 1 model, since Beat Back triggers only after the attack was resolved (that means all damage roll are made) and when it speaks about "enemy model" in singular, so I assume it means you can chose only 1. Of course it's also possible that PP hadn't though how combination of AOE attacks and Beat back works.

TL;DR: Beat back works with ranged attacks, but I'm not sure how it interacts with AOE and spray attacks hitting multiple models.

Jamie P
03-22-2010, 01:45 PM
Any more on this?

Professor Lust
03-22-2010, 02:16 PM
what is the wording on beat back?

If it says model directly hit its only one model.

If it only says models hit then its any models hit by the attack are effected.

EG: If grenadier marshaled by the ATGM UA uses the thunderbolt rune shot and hits
multiple models all models are moved.

luxionmk2
03-22-2010, 02:17 PM
As it reads, you can cast Train Wreck on ranged weapons and give them the Beat Back effect.

If the attack hits multiple models (as an AOE weapon would do - it directly hits the target and hits all others in the AOE), it would satisfy the conditions for Beat Back pushing them back, each one 1". If you resolve the 1" followup per enemy model moved, I cannot answer :/

This looks like an oversight of Train Wreck's interaction with ranged AOE weapons/Thresher.

luxionmk2
03-22-2010, 02:18 PM
what is the wording on beat back?

If it says model directly hit its only one model.

If it only says models hit then its any models hit by the attack are effected.
Oh yeah, the OP should post the original rules in question for all to look at:


Train Wreck:
Target friendly warbeastʼs weapons gain Beat Back. (Immediately after a normal attack with a weapon with Beat Back is resolved during this modelʼs combat action, the enemy model hit can be pushed 1˝ directly away from the attacking model. After the enemy model is pushed, the attacking model can advance up to 1˝.)

Professor Lust
03-22-2010, 02:22 PM
I think this one is errata bait personally.

I think RAW would indicate that Train wreck allows 1" of movement per model pushed.

I think Rules as Intened however may vary.

Zembar
03-22-2010, 02:51 PM
I see no reason why you can't push all models hit by the attack. Nothing is looking to prohibit it.


I think this one is errata bait personally.

I think RAW would indicate that Train wreck allows 1" of movement per model pushed.

I think Rules as Intened however may vary.

I'm not sure on that. We know the 1" of movement the attacking model makes is NOT directly linked to pushing the enemy model hit. As if it dies you may still take the movement, or you may not push the enemy and still take the movement. Infernals have ruled it so. (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=1502&highlight=beat+back) So with that I see it as two different unrelated effect triggered after an attack.

1. Push enemy model 1"
2. Move up to 1"

The Move doesn't hinge on if the Push happened, per infernal ruling, so I don't see why pushing more than one model would allow it to move more than 1"

Jamie P
03-23-2010, 03:13 AM
Any Infernals wish to comment please?

dicegod
03-23-2010, 03:44 AM
You only get to move 1" per attack with the weapon.

Read it sentence by sentence. You resolve the attack, pushing each model an inch.
Then the model can move an inch. That's it.

Only one instance of beat back is occurring here - it's just causing multiple pushes - so only 1" of movement

Rynth
03-23-2010, 05:26 AM
Reads to me like beat back trigger once per enemy hit.
If a Cannoneer hits 4 models I say it could it move 1" 4 times.
If a Drake hits 5 people w/ its spray it could move 1" 5 times.

Jamie P
03-23-2010, 01:25 PM
Infernal ruling please...

Jamie P
03-24-2010, 11:41 AM
Bump for unanswered question.

Weaselcreature
03-24-2010, 11:43 AM
Bumping does absolutely nothing in the rules forums.
If/when the Infernals rule on it, it will be posted here. Bumping doesn't "remind" them of the thread.

TurboNitroMonkey
03-24-2010, 03:20 PM
I'm going to go with dicegod on this one.

Train Wreck:
Target friendly warbeastʼs weapons gain Beat Back. (Immediately after a normal attack with a weapon with Beat Back is resolved during this modelʼs combat action, the enemy model hit can be pushed 1˝ directly away from the attacking model. After the enemy model is pushed, the attacking model can advance up to 1˝.)

If you modify the grammar in Train Wreck to accommodate multiple enemies it would read as follows:

Train Wreck:(with my pluralities)
Target friendly warbeastʼs weapons gain Beat Back. (Immediately after a normal attack with a weapon with Beat Back is resolved during this modelʼs combat action, enemy models hit can be pushed 1˝ directly away from the attacking model. After the enemy models are pushed, the attacking model can advance up to 1˝.)

This would suggest only one movement per attack, not per enemy hit.

Mind you this just my interpretation, it seems to make sense, without making any models overpowered, or pushing an agenda to make an uber-powerful combination.

When in doubt refer to Feralgeist's Razor (in my sig).

WMPlayer
03-24-2010, 03:43 PM
I agree that as worded, you get a single 1" move after each Beat Back attack regardless of the number of models moved.

draxius
03-25-2010, 12:52 PM
Even if we assume RAW, the only model this potentially has a huge effect on is the Titan Cannoneer (the only Warbeast Skorne can take with an AOE). Thresher isn't a problem (as it's a special attack, and the attacks generated are not "normal" attacks).

I don't see this as too much of a problem - at best you're getting Beat Back on 2-3 models, which means 2-3" of movement. It is far more devastating to ride through an army in melee throwing multiple attacks and pushing models out of the way if necessary. It's also a very expensive synergy (19 points for the two warbeasts) just to move a couple of models 1" and advancing your Cannoneer 2-3".

Jamie P
03-25-2010, 02:09 PM
Personally in game terms I'd use it on the drake, spray about 4-5 targets and almost get the equivallent of a full advance back to safety, or out of another models charge lane etc.

Would still like an infernals attention on this regardless of the result. Just to be sure.

Mnkylord
05-26-2010, 11:21 AM
Just thought I'd weigh in on this, quoting the infernal ruling in another thread:

The push occurs after the complete attack is resolved. A destroyed model is no longer there to be pushed but Beat Back still allows you to move after the attack that destroyed the model. This should tell you that the actual push is not what triggers the move.

It seems to me (in light of the infernal ruling), since resolving blast damage is part of the resolution of a single attack, the Cannoneer (or Drake) would only move 1", regardless of the number of models hit or pushed.

kc7sbp
05-26-2010, 05:53 PM
Read the ability closely, it says after damage you push model(s) hit by the attack, after you push you then advance. Additionally, it doesn't say "for each model hit advance 1 inch". So, you'd roll to hit, roll damage, push all models hit (regardless of damage done), then move 1".

Zenassassin
05-27-2010, 01:25 PM
It doesn't even say "model(s)". It's THE model hit. There is absolutely 0 room for adding in extra models, clearly a oversight...according the the text, there is only ever THE model hit. Not models hit, not each model, not "a" model.

I will be ruling it as written, the = 1. But I definitely hope for word from Soles on this one, it is errata-bait if ever there was errata-bait. Judging from how everything else in mkII works and from their intent, I would not build any armies that feature getting more than 1" of free movement out of beatback as a signifigant thing, though.

Mnkylord
05-27-2010, 08:23 PM
It doesn't even say "model(s)". It's THE model hit. There is absolutely 0 room for adding in extra models, clearly a oversight...according the the text, there is only ever THE model hit. Not models hit, not each model, not "a" model.

I will be ruling it as written, the = 1. But I definitely hope for word from Soles on this one, it is errata-bait if ever there was errata-bait. Judging from how everything else in mkII works and from their intent, I would not build any armies that feature getting more than 1" of free movement out of beatback as a signifigant thing, though.

I largely agree. I can totally understand why a Bronzeback could get 7-8" of movement out of the spell; He has to work for it. And I don't particularly mind that a ranged beast might get something out of it, too. But the wording is a little too open to misinterpretation, as evidenced by this thread. Hell, until I read the infernal's ruling, I was a bit on the fence, too.

lennyl
06-01-2010, 01:19 PM
An AOE does not directly hit anyone but one possible model, the others would be blast damage only. Whereas a spray would have the potential of hitting multiple targets directly. There is a difference.

If I had some one use Train Wreck on me all it says is model hit. I see no reason it wouldn't consider all models hit as I don't believe it makes any distinction to directly hit. But if it does only Spray attacks would have the potential to move multiple targets.

Hasten
06-01-2010, 01:56 PM
An AOE does not directly hit anyone but one possible model, the others would be blast damage only. Whereas a spray would have the potential of hitting multiple targets directly. There is a difference.

It does indeed make a difference for the purposes of rules and abilities that draw a distinction between "hit" and "directly hit". In this case, Train Wreck (and Beat Back) makes no such distinction:


Train Wreck:
Target friendly warbeastʼs weapons gain Beat Back. (Immediately after a normal attack with a weapon with Beat Back is resolved during this modelʼs combat action, the enemy model hit can be pushed 1˝ directly away from the attacking model. After the enemy model is pushed, the attacking model can advance up to 1˝.)

The way it's written, all models hit (directly or otherwise) are pushed. As to the advance, receiving only a 1" advance regardless of how many models are hit seems like the more reasonable conclusion (from a fairness perspective), though I agree that the rule does not appear to be worded for the possibility of multiple models hit.

-H