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Indirect Hitman
03-22-2010, 08:29 AM
If anyone could help clear this up for me I'd really appreciate it.

If a Nightmare in Terminus' battlegroup is affected by Ravager and it makes a trample power attack, when does it make extra attacks from Berserk? It has been suggested to me that all trample attacks are simultaneous, but I can't find any mention of this in Trample rules (pg 55-56). There was a statement to that effect in the MkII preview pdf, but it doesn't appear that it survived to see the printers.

Incidentally, unless I'm mistaken the Nightmare would get to use its :Reach: on the extra attacks from Berserk because these are not power attacks (reference pg 51, Power Attacks, paragraph 3). If someone could demonstrate why that might not be the case, I'd also be grateful.

luxionmk2
03-22-2010, 09:06 AM
Trample attacks being simultaneous are in the middle of the middle paragraph of the Trample section. Berserk is resolved after all those Trample attacks, so it would be made at the end of your Trample move - where the Nightmare ended up.

Also, Trample counts as a single melee attack, so you would only get ONE Berserker attack from Trample. Your Berserk attack can be with any weapon because they are additional attacks.

Indirect Hitman
03-22-2010, 11:56 AM
Trample attacks being simultaneous are in the middle of the middle paragraph of the Trample section.

It is not. I don't mean to suggest that what you're saying isn't the case, I've heard this from others, only that it does not appear in the rules. What follows is an exact quote of the entire Trample section from the October 2009 printing of Warmachine Prime:

"A model making a trample power attack crashes its way through small based models in its path. Any effects that prevent a model from charging, such as a penalty to its SPD or movement for any reason other than for being in rough terrain, also prevent the model from making a trample power attack. A trampling model can advance through trough terrain. A model must have both its movement and action available in order to make a trample power attack. Light warjacks cannot make trample power attacks.

Declare a trample power attack at the beginning of the model's normal movement. Choose a direction in which you wish to trample, and turn the model to face that direction. The model then advanced up to its current SPD plus 3" in a straight line in that direction. It moves through any small-based model in its path, but there must be room for the trampling model's base at the end of the movement. It stops if it contacts a model with a medium or larger base, an obstacle, or an obstruction. The trampling model cannot change its facing during or after this movement. Do not resolve free strikes against the trampling model during this movement.

After the model has finished its trample movement, it makes a melee attack roll against each small-based model it contacted. Models hit by a trample attack roll suffer a damage roll with a POW equal to the current STR of the trampling model. Trample damage can be boosted.

Resolve free strikes against the trampling model after resolving all trample attacks. Models contacted cannot make free strikes against the trampling model. Ignore the distance between models when resolving free strikes against the trampling model; if a model was eligible to make a free strike against the trampling model during the trampling model's movement it can do so whether or not the trampling model ended its movement in the eligible model's melee range."


Berserk is resolved after all those Trample attacks, so it would be made at the end of your Trample move - where the Nightmare ended up.

I do not believe that this is necessarily the case. As you can see in the quoted text the Nightmare would make a melee attack roll against each small-based model it contacted.

The entire text for Berserk is as follows: "When a model with Berserk destroys one or more models with a melee attack during its combat action, immediately after the attack is resolved it must make one additional melee attack against another model in its melee range."

So:

If the Nightmare destroys the first model it contacted with its trample movement, then Berserk requires that the following be processed:

Did the Nightmare destroy one or more models with a melee attack?
Assume for the sake of the example that it did. Yes.

Was it during the Nightmare's combat action?
Yes.

Then:

Immediately after the attack is resolved the Nightmare must make one additional melee attack against another model in its melee range.


Also, Trample counts as a single melee attack, so you would only get ONE Berserker attack from Trample. Your Berserk attack can be with any weapon because they are additional attacks.

Nowhere in the text does it state that trample counts as anything other than a power attack. On page 51 of Prime in the Power Attacks section in the second paragraph following the bulleted list, the second sentence reads as follows: "Power attacks are melee attacks with a 0.5" melee range."

I hope that clarifies what I'm getting at here.

luxionmk2
03-22-2010, 12:34 PM
Oh, good point. I'm referring to an older "final" PDF (don't have books at work). Looking at the HORDES rules, I see what you're seeing.

Looking at the wording, Trample is still a single attack, but one that generates multiple attack rolls and damage rolls. These are not attacks on their own.

After the model has finished its trample movement, it makes a melee attack roll against each small-based model it contacted. Models hit by a trample attack roll suffer a damage roll with a POW equal to the current STR of the trampling model. Trample damage can be boosted.

All Power Attacks are melee attacks, as you have quoted. Once you resolve that melee attack, Berserk grants you an additional attack. That is just like any other additional attack that you would normally purchase during your combat action. An Infernal might have to step in here to confirm this because I can see some silliness coming from this.

I hope at least part of your question has been clearly answered :)

downsideup16
03-22-2010, 12:48 PM
Trample says you make all the attack rolls, then all the damage rolls. After the Trample attack is resolved then berserk triggers if it killed one or more models. In accordance with attack-generating rules on page 60 "When a model is granted more attacks as a result of an attack it made, it gains only one." So after the trample is completely resolved if you killed one or models with the trample you would get one attack.

Lighten
03-22-2010, 12:51 PM
Have to agree with Luxion here... trample is one attack roll, not one attack, against each model contacted. And those attack rolls happen after movement is complete (since they're not attacks, they don't have the issue that you're now out of range).

So, the process would be

1. Make trample move
2. Make trample attack rolls
3. If you destroyed one (or more) models with trample, make an additional attack. Since the move resolved a couple steps ago, the attack would be against models you were engaged with at the end of your trample movement.

luxionmk2
03-22-2010, 12:51 PM
So after the trample is completely resolved if you killed one or models with the trample you would get one attack.
The question is whether that one additional attack is with any weapon (in Nightmare's case, his :Reach:) or the same one used in the original attack, which is another 0.5" "trample attack"?

Lighten
03-22-2010, 12:57 PM
It just specifies that it must make a melee attack; what would be the argument that it must be with a specific weapon/method?

Weaselcreature
03-22-2010, 12:59 PM
That is it exactly. The Trample Power Attack is one attack that generates multiple attack rolls. Berzerk is resolved if an attack kills one or more enemy models, not if attack rolls do.

Also, they rolls don't happen until after movement, so you would NOT do any sort of rewinding if you killed the 1st model you contacted.

luxionmk2
03-22-2010, 01:07 PM
It just specifies that it must make a melee attack; what would be the argument that it must be with a specific weapon/method?
There isn't any :) I agree with you. The OP's asking that question. There's also nothing to stop a Berserk model from using its non-reach weapon to avoid attacking a friendly. That's why I want to hear an official answer or confirmation.

Indirect Hitman
03-22-2010, 01:37 PM
I see, so the core of the matter is that the operative term used when attacking a model contacted by a trampling model is "attack roll" not "attack?"

I was reasoning that trample operates like thresher because the attacks made during a trample are not specifically classed as simultaneous and must therefore be sequential. Quote from Simultaneous and Sequential, pg 244: "When an effect causes multiple attacks or damage against multiple models, the attack and damage can be either simultaneous or sequential." Ergo, the extra attacks forced by Berserk would trigger on each model destroyed and necessarily interrupt the normal sequence of attacks made while trampling. But this is not correct because the trampling model is only making one "attack" with multiple "attack rolls" and Berserk only triggers after an attack is completely resolved?

Does this mean that models destroyed by the trample attack are destroyed simultaneously? If this is the case then, for example: When it tramples, would the Deathjack only be allowed to collect souls from enemy models destroyed by it's trample attack if the destroyed models were within 2" of the position the Deathjack occupies after it has finished moving?

With regards to the matter of the extra attacks and :Reach:: I could imagine an argument being made about resolving extra attacks made during a trample action being limited to the 0.5" range allowed by Power Attacks because they were somehow part of the attack and thought this would be a good time to ask.

Am I understanding the mechanics correctly now?

Kommissar Golovko
03-22-2010, 01:46 PM
Thresher was ruled as a Simultaneous attack. If I remember correctly the DJ was ruled only to collect souls that it killed within 2" of it at the end of the trample. There's no defined rule on using reach or non-reach weapon for the Berserk attack. Up to you which one you prefer to use.

Indirect Hitman
03-22-2010, 01:58 PM
Alright, thanks to everyone who contributed for helping clear this up for me.

I hope that there's an errata or faq document somewhere on the horizon since it isn't terrible clear in the trample rules how a situation like this should play out. Also, it would be nice to have a document to point to if thresher has gained the simultaneous classification, should a similar situation come up in the future.

luxionmk2
03-22-2010, 02:02 PM
I see, so the core of the matter is that the operative term used when attacking a model contacted by a trampling model is "attack roll" not "attack?"
Correct. It's telling you to make an attack roll, followed by a damage roll. It's not telling you to make an attack.


I was reasoning that trample operates like thresher because the attacks made during a trample are not specifically classed as simultaneous and must therefore be sequential.
Actually, I believe that if it doesn't specify, then it is by default Simultaneous :) Unfortunately I can't find it in the rules right now.


Ergo, the extra attacks forced by Berserk would trigger on each model destroyed and necessarily interrupt the normal sequence of attacks made while trampling. But this is not correct because the trampling model is only making one "attack" with multiple "attack rolls" and Berserk only triggers after an attack is completely resolved?
Correct!
Berserk reads, "When this model destroys one or more models with a melee attack during its combat action..." It is not triggered on each model destruction. It is triggered on an attack that destroyed 1+ models.


Does this mean that models destroyed by the trample attack are destroyed simultaneously? If this is the case then, for example: When it tramples, would the Deathjack only be allowed to collect souls from enemy models destroyed by it's trample attack if the destroyed models were within 2" of the position the Deathjack occupies after it has finished moving?

Unfortunately that is correct too. The Deathjack resolves his Cull Soul on his ending position, the same position where you roll ALL your trample attack rolls. It's cleaner and you worry less about "where it's suppose to be" for funny rules interactions.

Deathjack Rules Thread (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=7854)


Hope that clears some extra stuff up for you.

Macallan
04-12-2010, 10:26 AM
Trample is simultaneous, and it will only generate a single Berserk attack.
Reach would apply.