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Defenstrator
12-01-2009, 09:06 AM
Typhon has Reach giving him a 2" melee range. Gunfighter states that a model with it has a .5" inch melee range, directly contradicting Reach. Can Typhon's controller decide which that he has at any given tine? Or do both apply simultaneously?

Gunfighter allows models to make ranged attacks against models in its melee range. Since Typhon has reach if this applies simultaneously it means he can target models within 2" of himself, but if not is it correct that he can only target models within .5" of himself as stated by the melee range of Gunfighter?

A model may not get an aiming bonus when targeting a model in its melee range, but aiming is not disallowed. This means that Typhon can get the aiming bonus against models outside of his melee range. Correct?

Hjelmen0
12-01-2009, 09:08 AM
Gunfighter is just like having a second melee weapon with ½" range. So it cannot be used to target models up-to-and-including the melee range of a reach weapon.

Yes, it's wonky, but that's how it works.

Mutton
12-01-2009, 09:18 AM
To add on; if you Aim, do you get the aiming bonus against models not in your gunfighter range?

Defenstrator
12-01-2009, 09:19 AM
And does Reach put them into melee range while you are using Gunfighter?

Stevo
12-01-2009, 09:20 AM
That is how it works for other Gunfighters. If you didn't move and killed all models engaging you and you still have extra shots you would gain an aiming bonus. Gunfighter only prohibits the aiming bonus while in melee.

Hjelmen0
12-01-2009, 09:22 AM
And does Reach put them into melee range while you are using Gunfighter?
No, it does not. The Gunfighter attacks only have a melee range of ½", no matter what other weapons the model possesses.

GunMageinTraining
12-01-2009, 09:28 AM
Lets add the entire...

They are gunfighters, with 'spray' weapons.

How does that work? You can target, and drop a spray ontop of anything within .5", or out of the 2" melee range Typhon enjoys, but if they are within that .5-2" range they can not only 'Not' have a spray dropped on them, they won't even allow the model in question to use said spray attacks against models not within .5"

... gunfighter sprays are odd.

Cloud-Gatherer
12-01-2009, 09:29 AM
Typhon's Gunfighter rule doesn't make sense to me because I am dumb. ;)

Defenstrator
12-01-2009, 09:36 AM
Wait, are you saying that when Typhon uses Gunfighter his spray becomes 1/2 an inch?

Stevo
12-01-2009, 09:38 AM
Wait, are you saying that when Typhon uses Gunfighter his spray becomes 1/2 an inch?

Watchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?
Be kind, rewind.

Can you link the ruling?

Hjelmen0
12-01-2009, 09:39 AM
Thor Steinhammer does not have Gunfighter, he has Point Blank. Point Blank makes melee attacks with a ranged weapon, causing it to lose its spray. This is because melee attacks to not have a range, and as such cannot have a spray template effect.

Gunfighter makes ranged attacks, so it keeps the spray template, but it just cannot target a model outside of the ½" melee range, even if the model has another melee weapon with reach.

Cloud-Gatherer
12-01-2009, 09:45 AM
Oh yeah, you're right. Nevermind.

Defenstrator
12-01-2009, 09:47 AM
So what you are saying is that you can only target models in .5" melee, but you can make attacks against other models under the spary that weren't targeted, and since those models are not in melee you can get the aiminig bonus with them.

Oh, and since he doesn't have Virtuoso Typhon can't make melee attacks as well, can he?

Primus
12-01-2009, 09:51 AM
That would be correct, except Typhon's special Multiple Heads rule circumvents that restriction.

Hjelmen0
12-01-2009, 09:51 AM
Yes, that's what I'm saying :)

Multiple Heads makes Typon work like he kinda has Virtuoso, since it allows him to combine ranged and melee initial attacks during an activation.

But he cannot make _both_ his initial ranged and melee attacks in an activation (which would actually give him a total of 6 attacks in melee; 3 initial melee and 3 initial ranged attacks).

GunMageinTraining
12-01-2009, 09:51 AM
He has a multi-head ability, basically virtuoso with a twist.

Virtuoso lets you make both ranged and melee. Multi-head lets you make 3, in any combination of melee or ranged.

If he had virtuoso, he would effectively have 3 melee head attacks and 3 ranged attacks.


edit: yay for fast boards.

Defenstrator
12-01-2009, 09:55 AM
So it's just the aiming bonus against models that aren't in melee question left. Gotta say, I'm impressed at the speed and helpfulness here.

Primus
12-01-2009, 10:10 AM
Well, the previous Gunfighter rulings boiled down to "you don't get the aiming bonus so long as you're still in melee". If we extrapolate out from that, so long as anything's within 2" of Typhon (thanks to Reach on its Bite), you wouldn't get the aiming bonus on models out of melee hit by the spray.

That being said, Typhon's as far as I know the first model in the game with a Gunfighter + Spray combo. Yay for another Legion first! As such I could be totally off-base here.

Hjelmen0
12-01-2009, 10:11 AM
As written, if you use gunfighter to make a ranged attack against a model in your melee range (½") you do not get the aiming bonus at all.


This model does not get an aiming bonus when targeting a model in its melee range[...] Since getting the aiming bonus for the entire attack is dependent on the target being in melee range (½"), you won't aim against models outside of melee range that are under the template.

GunMageinTraining
12-01-2009, 10:22 AM
What if you kill the ones engaging you, with the first attack, then using the second and third fire breaths against models outside of 2", using normal shooting rules, assuming you gave up your movement, you'd be getting aiming vs them right?

Defenstrator
12-01-2009, 10:22 AM
I think this is a case of a confusing rule, because when I read that I interpret it as meaning
This model does not get an aiming bonus when targeting a model in its melee rangeSo no bonus against people in his melee range, but you do get the bonus against models outside his range. Because after all if you couldn't get the bonus, why are you still allowed to aim? Is there an official ruling somewhere?

Edit:
Oh, and does that melee range count as just the Gunfighter .5", or does it also include his 2" reach?

Hjelmen0
12-01-2009, 10:23 AM
Not yet. But we can hope that one appears in this thread :P

whats82
12-01-2009, 10:30 AM
This is indeed very unintuitive and wonky.

Hjelmen0
12-01-2009, 10:33 AM
This is indeed very unintuitive and wonky.

The Gunfighter and Reach issue has been ruled on. But the aiming thing, I don't think has been mentioned before.

whats82
12-01-2009, 10:37 AM
I think if gunfighter is worded as ".. this model does not gain the aiming bonus while in melee.", it would clear things up. So if the gunfighter with multiple attacks kills the model(s) it was in melee with, range attack on other, further away models could gain the aiming bonus normally.

Defenstrator
12-01-2009, 10:38 AM
Typhon should also have a few Tactical Tips on his book entry to nip these problems in the bud.

Hjelmen0
12-01-2009, 10:39 AM
Don't forget to put that in the feedback forms :) I sure will make sure to mention it