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jwai
03-24-2010, 12:10 AM
This is probably going to sound a little odd, but when you put together a list, and you by chance happen to use models that satisfy Tier 1 of a particular theme list, does it then automatically become a theme list (with the accompanying bonuses) without you specifying as such, or do you have to expressly state that it is a theme list before you can then claim the bonuses?

admanb
03-24-2010, 12:25 AM
Uhhh. I guess it depends on how you define "specifying." I would say that you should expect to declare to your opponent the theme list you're using, the tier it's at, and the bonuses you get from that. Or it should be on the army list you hand to him at the beginning of the game, if you do that.

Binz
03-24-2010, 02:10 AM
Well... the way i see it is that there is no point *not* having the theme list bonuses if you have satisfied the conditions. but theres no reason you cant just add a MoW Kovnik and make it not a theme list at any point.

As long as you do that before the game begins and you tell your opponent what army you are using! :D

Techcasualty
03-24-2010, 02:29 AM
Are you reeeeallly asking if you get the tier benefits if you accidentally build a tier list?

oh god this thread is +10 internets.

No, if if I find out you built a tier list on accident you cannot use the bonuses. End of story.

Jake the Dog
03-24-2010, 03:12 AM
I think there is merit to the question as some Tiers can lower the costs of models thus making your list incomplete.

dhow tocor
03-24-2010, 05:16 AM
If you were to hand your TO a list he or she ought to know whether or not it is a Tier list so that they can determine if you've built it right and not too far below the point cost of the event (2 points for Steamroller events).

If you've accidentally built a Tier list but said list is too far below the point cost of the event then your list would not be legal.

Having said that if the TO is nice he or she may allow you to change it before the event begins.

But once the Tourney starts your accidental Tier list is not a Tier list.

bjorkgnu
03-24-2010, 05:52 AM
If you were to hand your TO a list he or she ought to know whether or not it is a Tier list so that they can determine if you've built it right and not too far below the point cost of the event (2 points for Steamroller events).
Sorry, but no. There are roughly 60 warcasters in the game, without even adding warlocks to the list. Each warcaster will have 4 tiers available. 240 different tiers is far more than any reasonable person could possibly expect a TO to just "know."

If someone brings a list to a tourney that I'm running and doesn't declare that it's a tier list, they're not going to get the bonus. With everything else a TO has to do before a tournament, if I had to flip through books to make sure that a submitted list wasn't "accidentally" a tier list, the tournament would never start on time.

Butcher of Koff-Koff
03-24-2010, 06:15 AM
I would say that if you do not share with your opponents before hand that the list is a tiered list you do not gain the benefits. It should be clearly marked on the roster as well.

If you created it accidentally and realized later that you had a tiered list, I don't think you should get the benefits from it just because someone pointed out you built one.... if that is indeed the case.

I'm still kind of unclear as to how this even came up. Can you elaborate on how you found out you had made a tiered list?

CT GAMER
03-24-2010, 06:25 AM
I think his question is just as much: IF I take a certain combination of units that I find out satisfies a tier list am i obligated to play it as such?

Butcher of Koff-Koff
03-24-2010, 06:33 AM
I think his question is just as much: IF I take a certain combination of units that I find out satisfies a tier list am i obligated to play it as such?

Which is kind of why I'd like to know how this situation came up to begin with.

Mod_Redphantasm
03-24-2010, 06:42 AM
I think his question is just as much: IF I take a certain combination of units that I find out satisfies a tier list am i obligated to play it as such?

If you find this accident out before the game, then I don't see why you wouldn't play it as a tier list. Bonuses for doing nothing in particular

If you find out halfway through a game or tournament, then no, you do not suddenly get the bonuses.

whats82
03-24-2010, 07:11 AM
Makes more sense for the player to look out to whether their list qualifies or not.

Agamemnon
03-24-2010, 07:18 AM
If you found out while playing in a tournament. No bonuses that game. All following games will get bonuses without adding any additional models to yourlist ie from points reductions/free models.

jandrese
03-24-2010, 07:34 AM
It could happen. You bring your list to a tournament right after your faction book is released. Naturally your LGS is behind because they're lazy about ordering books. When you get there you borrow someone's book and discover that you accidentally followed one of the themes.

luxionmk2
03-24-2010, 07:37 AM
In a casual game, I'd say it's up to you and your opponent about how to resolve that. It falls under the same category as forgetting a rule or ability on your model. Do you get a take-back, proceed forward remembering it, or in the case of tiers, just move forward without the bonuses? You and your opponent decide.

In an event or tournament, defer to the TO, depending on how they've set it up. I'll be asking at the start if players are playing tiered lists, and they are required to inform/remind their opponent at the start of each game.

If they find out part way through that they're playing a Tiered list, I'm nice enough to allow them to get its benefits for the rest of the event. However, I would NOT allow a player to adjust their lists though (in case their tier suddenly gives them 2 extra points or something).

I think it's easy to "accidentally" create tier lists. I often slap together lists with just cards and their PCs. You're more likely to find out when someone else points it out, like your opponent :)

DevonV
03-24-2010, 08:51 AM
Which is kind of why I'd like to know how this situation came up to begin with.

I built a Magnus list, and just before the game (casual) I realized that it was a Most Wanted Tier 1, so I therefore had two more points to spend.

Some of the Tier 1s are easy to hit without trying if you're playing theme to begin with. I don't usually build towards them because I don't find most of the benefits worth the loss of model choices.

Butcher of Koff-Koff
03-24-2010, 10:46 AM
Then it sounds reasonable to me that you could spend your extra points since the game hadn't started yet. In a casual game, I'm not sure why anyone would deny you the ability to take the extra points away from you awarded for participating in a tiered themed list.

brotherscott
03-24-2010, 09:52 PM
Casual game, probably not much of a problem.

I am with PG_bjorkgnu as far as tournaments and organized play go- it is the player's responsibility to know what army they are bringing and any tier bonuses they may have.

If you expect or would like a TO to go through every list and verify them prior to an event, please be willing to submit them a week prior to the event, and changes will not be allowed. :p

Most folks use an army list building tool, and most of the current tools are well updated and indicate tiered lists. It should be noted on the lists that get turned in prior to the event.

Wishing
03-25-2010, 03:17 AM
I think the intention behind the theme lists, even if it isn't stated in black and white, is that they are 100% voluntary. You get to pick whether you want the benefits or not if you have a list that fits the requirements. A list should be clearly marked as to whether you have chosen for it to be a theme list before the game starts.

In practice, it sounds like all this means currently is that you can't be disqualified for accidentally spending too few points on your list if you happen to build a theme that gives you a points discount without realizing. However, there could be themes out there that give you abilities that aren't optional to use, so it could become relevant in other situations too.

jwai
03-26-2010, 02:02 AM
I think his question is just as much: IF I take a certain combination of units that I find out satisfies a tier list am i obligated to play it as such?

You've phrased my question much more succinctly than I could have done :)


Which is kind of why I'd like to know how this situation came up to begin with.

It was more like something that I thought about after looking at the theme lists that are currently out. The rulebooks didn't appear to say anything about it, so I ask now.