PDA

View Full Version : Incorporeal and Impact hits



Razhem
03-26-2010, 01:14 PM
Do impact hits have to trigger against the first model you enter contact with even if incorporeal?

Ynnead
03-26-2010, 01:41 PM
Little additional case - start my activation with incorporeal kavallerie near to a model and charge something behind it. As described im counting base to base as long as I´m moving through it´s base. So at the point I moved 3" the impact will trigger, I will loose incorpereal but I´m still on the model. What to do?

MenothJohn
03-26-2010, 02:20 PM
Do impact hits have to trigger against the first model you enter contact with even if incorporeal?

I don't believe the impact attacks trigger because, unless you have a magical horse. You would pass through the incorporeal model and continue to target.

I believe this came up on what happens to charging through an incorporeal modell and triggering a free strike.

Minion1981
03-26-2010, 02:23 PM
I started the post on the menoth forums because i had just bought 5 Exemplar Vengers cavalary, so I am hoping very much that the testament's feat will work for them for the assination charge :P

Cannotcope
03-26-2010, 02:27 PM
And related to the first two posters:

If a non incorporeal cavalry model charges a model behind an incorporeal model, when the cavalry model contacts the incorporeal model, does it stop and make an impact attack if it moved 3" or more? If it moved less than 3" does it still stop (and not make an impact attack)?

Per a strict reading of the Cavalry Charge rules(ignoring Incorporeal for now), Cavalry stops when it contacts a model (regardless of distance moved). If it moved 3" it gets to make an impact attack and can continue the charge. If it moved less than 3" it just stops, makes no impact attack, and cannot continue the charge.

In the case of being able to make an impact attack, the charge continues, but the ability or inability to move through models will affect how far the charge continues, depending on the results of the impact attack(s).

In the case of being unable to make impact attacks, the charge just ends.

Does the line in Incorporeal: "Other models ... can move through this model without effect if they have enough movement to move completely past it" override the Cavalry Charge stopping on contact rules?

Razhem
03-26-2010, 02:44 PM
I'll make my question clearer since people are missing my intention.

What I want to know is if incorporeal cavalry has to stop to make impact hits on the first model it contacts with. This is all because of venger and Gravus interactions with the testaments feat. Reading raw, the vengers would charge, make impact hits on the first model they contacted and then, since they would become corporeal, would stop there. Is this how it would be played?

Minion1981
03-26-2010, 02:54 PM
if so, then the testaments feat is worthless for heavy cav :(

dicegod
03-26-2010, 04:53 PM
This sucks :(

As if the testament didn't take enough hits as is in mk2 :(

Craaag
03-26-2010, 05:48 PM
I don't think it would lose incorporeal.

Incorporeal states that you can move through other models if enough movement is there to go completely past it's base. Impact says it triggers on contact with another model. A model doesn't lose incorporeal until just before it attacks, so after movement. So it never really triggers impact attacks if you can move through the models base as the model hasn't lost incorporeal till after movement.

Really hope this is right.

Horrorshow
03-26-2010, 07:06 PM
I don't have the rules but I would suggest quoting exactly what makes a model lose incorporeal. Then compare this to exactly what it states for cavalry charges. See if any of the conditions are met exactly. If not the model can move through as normal for incorporeal.

The Happy Anarchist
03-26-2010, 07:44 PM
It all comes down to whether Impact Attacks are optional.

If they are optional you don't have to take them. If they are not optional then you have to take them and lose incorp.

I am pretty sure it does state that incorporeal models contact what they are moving through.

dicegod
03-26-2010, 07:46 PM
We need a ruling on intent, because you have to make them as written.

Mod_Faultie
03-26-2010, 07:53 PM
It all comes down to whether Impact Attacks are optional.
"If a charging cavalry model contacts another model during
its movement and has moved at least 3 ˝, it stops and makes
impact attacks with its Mount (see “Mount,” previous)
against all models in the Mount’s melee range."

It doesn't sound like they are optional.

The Happy Anarchist
03-26-2010, 08:09 PM
Harsh. Incorp models do contact as well.

Base to Base and Contact
Models whose bases are touching are in base-to-base (B2B)
contact. If a model has an ability that allows it to move
through another model, while it is moving through the other
model they are considered to be in base-to-base contact.
One model contacts another when it changes from not being
base to base with it to being base to base with it. Additionally,
when a model is already base to base with another and would
move toward it, it is considered to contact that model again.

Poor Testament. Hurts eGaspy Soul Hunters too.

Dino-Czar
03-26-2010, 08:10 PM
soul hunters can't make impact attacks.

The Happy Anarchist
03-26-2010, 08:39 PM
Ah, sweet! Forgot about that change.

dicegod
03-26-2010, 09:07 PM
This is so awesome.

Razhem
03-27-2010, 12:26 AM
This is so awesome.
The sarcasm! It burns us!

So as I expected then... oh well, no more vengers with testament.

FeignLife
03-27-2010, 12:57 AM
soul hunters can't make impact attacks.

*Devilish laugh*

dicegod
03-27-2010, 01:05 AM
Seriously though?

It's not like the Testament was burning up the tournament scene and he gets this hit?

1) Models can be free struck by magical weapons
2) Cavalry are 5 wounds
3) Revive returns @ 1 wound
4) Souls can't be gathered from friendly fire
5) The Omegus is no longer a powerful denial tool
6) eMorghoul and Cryx deny him souls
7) Piper no longer gives bonus move
8) Errants cannot self sacrifice back into his control for extra souls
9) Cleansers don't blow up
10) There is no way to boost the MAT of the Vengers (Impel and Gravus)
11) Zealots and MB are not the power houses they once were combined with increased 'jack survivability
12) He is forced to take warjacks

And now this? Seriously?

Any eGaspy, clearly the stronger 'caster, gets off scott free.

Razhem
03-27-2010, 01:30 AM
To be fair, it has taken us about... 6 months to even notice this, so I don't really think it was intentional. I doubt there will be an errata to the core rules though, so I'd expect this ruling to stand the same way impervious running Vilmon was accepted by raw even if it was bat**** crazy.

dicegod
03-27-2010, 01:42 AM
Me too, PP have always been stubborn about Errata. Remember how long it took before they changed Aiyana so you couldn't move and shoot artillery? Oh yeah, about a month before the FT.

And I'm damn sure they don't want to errata a game that's two months old.

So we are stuck with Kara Sloans feat, and Invincible Alexia Lamentation, and now a 'caster who fails to work mechanically.

BTW, Dervish side step won't work for feat assassinations. Once you make your initial attack you're corporeal again.


The fact is I have to deal with it, and a caster I hardly get to use is going on the shelf along with a $150 unit that I only used with that 'caster. Fantastic.

Blockbuster
03-27-2010, 01:43 AM
other than the resolution that soulhunters cant make impact attacks (im guessing being light cav? im not up on my Cryx stats)

:Incorporeal: Incorporeal
... It can move through obstructions & other models if it has enough movement to move completely past them.
...When this model makes a melee or ranged attack, before the attack roll is made it loses incorpreal for one round.
now add in

Calvary Charge
... If a charging calvary model contacts another model during its movement & has moved at least 3", it stops & makes impact attacks withs its mount (see "mount," previous) against all models in the mounts melee range...

plz forgive my interpritation if its way off .. but i read incorporeal meaning they dont come in contact with other models unless they want to utilize the impact hits & even then only after the attack has been declaired & before a ATK roll is made.
there seems to be a long time between charging (moving SPD 7? +3" and rolling an attack)

im not arguing the point just my inturpritation of it .. where did i go wrong?

dicegod
03-27-2010, 01:52 AM
Top of page 46.

Blockbuster
03-27-2010, 02:26 AM
well i'll be a son of a warwitch .. they got rules for everything!
thanks for clearing that up for me :)

dicegod
03-27-2010, 03:44 AM
I'm so glad that they did a fantastic job of simplifying the game. Writing that his feat grants incorporeal is so much smoother than saying they can move through enemy models and terrain without penalty.

That was so complicated it hurt my head.

The Happy Anarchist
03-27-2010, 04:22 AM
Actually they already hit Invincible Alexia. Mootaz posted in the Merc forum. Maybe there is hope?

Lord Xalys
03-27-2010, 04:35 AM
Dudes, enough with the sarcasm already. I understand people lament the MKI-MKII rules transitions of the Testament, but are we going to whine on and on about it like in ye olde MKI PoM forum?

As for this particular situation, I saw this come up during a game last Thursday as well. IMHO, the crux of the matter is whether or not an Incorporeal Venger 'contacts' a model, which is what triggers Impact Attacks (the way I read it, IA's are in no way optional).

RAW: 'contact' is when two models go from not being b2b to being b2b. Incorporeal or not, the Venger still does this.

I think I speak for all Menites though, when I humbly ask for an Infernal to pop in and resolve the matter once and for all. Personally, I won't lose sleep over it, as I don't own either the Testament or Vengers yet, and I never played them in MKI.

LX

dicegod
03-27-2010, 05:09 AM
Unfortunately I do own both Vengers, Gravus and Testament and would appreciate that they check that this is intention with the powers that be.


I forsee a "play as intended" in the future, which makes me mad. $200 mad.

Mod_Redphantasm
03-27-2010, 06:47 AM
Unfortunately I do own both Vengers, Gravus and Testament and would appreciate that they check that this is intention with the powers that be.


I forsee a "play as intended" in the future, which makes me mad. $200 mad.

But are you Joe jackson mad?

Lord Xalys
03-27-2010, 10:18 AM
I just reread the post by Happy Anarchist. If what is stated in the HORDES is true, namely 'If a model has an ability that allows it to move through another model, while it is moving through the other model they are considered to be in base-to-base contact', then it should become an errata for WARMACHINE as well.

LX

Razhem
03-27-2010, 12:35 PM
I just reread the post by Happy Anarchist. If what is stated in the HORDES is true, namely 'If a model has an ability that allows it to move through another model, while it is moving through the other model they are considered to be in base-to-base contact', then it should become an errata for WARMACHINE as well.

LX
This still doesn't help the vengers + testament situation and doesn't really cover anything new.

Caedus
03-29-2010, 06:03 PM
So is this correct vengers have to make impact attacks even if they are incorporeal?

Mootaz
03-30-2010, 03:27 AM
Checking...

dicegod
03-30-2010, 04:40 AM
Hurrah!!!!

Mod_Redphantasm
03-30-2010, 09:16 AM
I just reread the post by Happy Anarchist. If what is stated in the HORDES is true, namely 'If a model has an ability that allows it to move through another model, while it is moving through the other model they are considered to be in base-to-base contact', then it should become an errata for WARMACHINE as well.

LX


Base to Base and Contact

Models whose bases are touching are in base-to-base (B2B)
contact. If a model has an ability that allows it to move
through another model, while it is moving through the other
model they are considered to be in base-to-base contact.

MK II Rule PDF, Page 46

Caedus
04-01-2010, 06:33 AM
So no official ruling yet?

Kypt
04-01-2010, 06:37 AM
Nope, status is still checking and it may take a while. We'll just have to wait.

dhow tocor
04-01-2010, 06:40 AM
One of the Infernals, Mooatz, posted "Checking..." above. When a ruling is determined he will post it. Please Read the Sticky at the top of the Rules Forum on what an Infernal is if you are not already aware.

Soylent
04-01-2010, 06:41 AM
Patence grasshopper.

BloodyGums
04-02-2010, 04:48 AM
I'll make my question clearer since people are missing my intention.

What I want to know is if incorporeal cavalry has to stop to make impact hits on the first model it contacts with. This is all because of venger and Gravus interactions with the testaments feat. Reading raw, the vengers would charge, make impact hits on the first model they contacted and then, since they would become corporeal, would stop there. Is this how it would be played?

Yes, According to the Cavalry rule for charge it specifically says it stops and thus the result the Cavalry should be no longer incorporeal. It will resolve the impact attack. A double edged sword. im sorry to say...

HandsomeDan
04-02-2010, 11:35 AM
Yes, According to the Cavalry rule for charge it specifically says it stops and thus the result the Cavalry should be no longer incorporeal. It will resolve the impact attack. A double edged sword. im sorry to say...

I don't think anyone at this point is arguing the RAW. But just last week a ruling was made against Alexia that clearly went counter to her RAW to bring her power level down to something reasonable. So a ruling in favor of the Testament is neither without precedent nor (IMO) undeserved.

exemplar_seneschal
04-06-2010, 10:36 AM
One of the Infernals, Mooatz, posted "Checking..." above. When a ruling is determined he will post it. Please Read the Sticky at the top of the Rules Forum on what an Infernal is if you are not already aware.

Very, very, very, very, very, very interested about the outcome of the history ^^

Silverstar843
04-06-2010, 09:54 PM
I'd sure as hell like to know why my post disappeared. I asked if the cavalry could charge through something that is incorporeal and they just removed it. It seems to me that Incorporeal cavalry charging through a model would indeed trigger their impact hits, but a cavalry model charging through an incorporeal model....


Other models, including slammed, pushed, or thrown models, can move through this model without effect if they have enough movement to move completely past it.

Vehilmenter
06-03-2010, 04:04 PM
Because I have yet to find an official ruling anywhere in the rules forums......

Bump

If there is one I apologize. The ruling on this question will determine my army lists for the New England Store Team Tournament.

Weaselcreature
06-04-2010, 06:56 AM
When the status is "Checking..." the ruling will be posted in this thread.
Bumping it does no good (and they don't like threads being bumped)

Vehilmenter
06-04-2010, 07:09 AM
I understand but it has been two months, just making sure it wasn't forgotten :)

Mootaz
07-07-2010, 01:14 AM
Answer is:
The incorporeal cavalry can decide whether or not to stop for impact attacks. If they DO stop and make impact attacks, they lose Incorporeal. of course.