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Archdeluxe
07-09-2013, 10:43 AM
In a tournament setting, my Cygnar opponent fires his Main Gun during his Stormwall's activation without first rolling for rapid fire on either of his Metal Storms, thus clearly missing the beginning of his combat action. Based on this ruling (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?167375-Models-with-multiple-rapid-fire-weapons) what options does he have for the rest of his combat action? I'm assuming the answer will be applicable to the Galleon as well.

solkan
07-09-2013, 10:54 AM
The game state is in error because a mandated choice was not made. Rewind, correct the oversight, and continue playing.

Archdeluxe
07-09-2013, 10:59 AM
I think this will make those 2 colossals harder to play.

jandrese
07-09-2013, 11:01 AM
I don't understand the problem. You correct the game state and move on. This is one of those cases where it would be really easy to correct and doesn't require any difficult rewinding or anything. You just roll the D3s afterward and take the remaining shots, if any.

Archdeluxe
07-09-2013, 11:03 AM
Are you sure this isn't like focus allocation where if you forget to allocate, you have in fact chosen not to allocate?

Archdeluxe
07-09-2013, 11:04 AM
I don't understand the problem. You correct the game state and move on. This is one of those cases where it would be really easy to correct and doesn't require any difficult rewinding or anything. You just roll the D3s afterward and take the remaining shots, if any.

Not based on the above ruling.

jandrese
07-09-2013, 11:07 AM
Rapid Fire on those models is not optional. You must make the roll. Forgetting to make the roll results in an invalid game state which must be corrected.


When you decide to make initial attacks with this weapon at the beginning of this model's combat action, roll a d3. The total rolled is the number of initial attacks this model can make with this weapon during the combat action, ignoring ROF.

If Rapid Fire were a *Attack then there might be a gotcha chance in there, but with these models you must make the roll.

LEJ
07-09-2013, 11:08 AM
Not based on the above ruling.

Wrong. The ruling tells you how it works, not what to do when you don't play it as it works.

If you forget you should correct that and roll the D3s, this is not a situation where you can be a bad sportsman and 'Gotcha' an opponent out of their attacks.

Archdeluxe
07-09-2013, 11:17 AM
A choice must be made at the beginning of the combat action, what to do, if anything, with Conquest's Metal Storm attacks. This choice could depend largely upon the main gun's attack, if the Cygnar player were allowed to resolve that before making this choice. That is the whole point of the ruling, if it made no difference, there'd be no ruling.

LEJ
07-09-2013, 11:32 AM
A choice must be made at the beginning of the combat action, what to do, if anything, with Conquest's Metal Storm attacks.

Exactly! This is what you are supposed to do.

Your question is basically "What do I do when I fail to follow the rules" and as always this is a sportsmanship issue. The correct thing to do is to restore the game state, if you think that resolution gives your opponent an advantage, call a ref over and they can resolve that issue.

This is, however you look at it, not a rules question.

jandrese
07-09-2013, 11:33 AM
If you're taking shots with the Metal Storm, then you've clearly made your choice. I don't see the problem here, except that you let the game get into a technically incorrect state that you need to correct.

McNs
07-09-2013, 11:35 AM
Checking...

Pyrodude32
07-09-2013, 11:48 AM
Are you sure this isn't like focus allocation where if you forget to allocate, you have in fact chosen not to allocate?
Focus allocation isn't mandatory - its voluntary.


A choice must be made at the beginning of the combat action, what to do, if anything, with Conquest's Metal Storm attacks. This choice could depend largely upon the main gun's attack, if the Cygnar player were allowed to resolve that before making this choice.
Once a gun has been chosen to fire the colossal is locked into using its initial ranged attacks for the duration of the combat action (granted, you can choose not to use the remaining initial ranged attacks as well). Technically speaking, the d3 initial shots should be rolled before any of the guns have fired; however, in rewinding to the last legal moment in time the results would still be the same as if you had rolled the shots beforehand. This is because in rolling the shots - you do not have to use the Metal Storm initial attacks first, you can use the Big Gun initial attacks before using the Metal Storm initial attacks.

Anyways - hope this helps to clear up any potential confusion.

Netherby
07-09-2013, 06:54 PM
My understanding of the ruling is that it would apply differently to these two models.

Stormwall that failed to roll the D3's at the start of the action would be forced to use covering fire, since rapid fire is only one of the option on its weapon.

Galleon that failed to roll the D3's is in an invalid game state, since it always uses rapid fire and has no other choice.

Alviaran
07-09-2013, 07:10 PM
My understanding of the ruling is that it would apply differently to these two models.

Stormwall that failed to roll the D3's at the start of the action would be forced to use covering fire, since rapid fire is only one of the option on its weapon.

Galleon that failed to roll the D3's is in an invalid game state, since it always uses rapid fire and has no other choice.
This implies a default state then that "If I choose not to do A, I am by default doing B" which is not true. The bit about "What is the default if you choose not to move a model: forfeit movement or advance 0"?" shows that defaults for many such things do not exist in this game. They chose to, for competitive reasons, define the default in that case.

There is a judge checking probably for similar reasons. Should there be a default?

Currently, there is not. So correcting the game state is the logical extension. Don't try to gotcha' your opponent out of their attacks. Or at least, don't expect a TO of any kind to be sympathetic to your cause when the rules do not even imply that. (Not saying you are, just as a general "you" thing)

Hell, love when people try to do this to me with my Warpwolves when the wolf is charging a heavy. Yeah, I'm really gonna' warp Berserk or Prowl when going after your heavy without another model withn 5" of my target...

Netherby
07-09-2013, 07:26 PM
I was just going by a ruling (which I now can't find a link to) which basically said that either you are making rapid fire attacks and roll a D3 or you aren't making them and didn't roll one. Giving me the impression that by not rolling the D3 at the start you automatically chose the "other" option.

Personally I wouldn't stop someone rolling for rapid fire later in their activation because they forgot. Maybe if they continued to "forget" in situations where the choice was obviously significant I might object :p

Valander
07-09-2013, 08:03 PM
I think the discussion has covered all topics, so locking until the judges have a decision on how to handle this in tournaments.

DarkLegacy
09-09-2013, 10:08 AM
Answer is this:

A player has made an attack roll, but did not declare which weapon they were using or if any special attacks were being made. How is this resolved?

If a player does not declare a special attack before the dice are rolled, then they may not make a special attack.

If a player does not declare which weapon they are using, they are considered to have used the first melee weapon listed on their card (top to bottom, left to right) that has melee range to their target, and is in the appropriate firing arc if necessary.

If an incorrect amount of dice was rolled for this attack (for example: this weapon system was crippled), then the attack roll must be rerolled using the same weapon. A player may not choose to boost this attack roll if they initially did not.

Example: A kodiak with a crippled left arm charges a target, and the player rolls before declaring which arm they used for the charge attack. By following top to bottom, left to right, the charge attack is made with the crippled left arm. If the player rolled two dice (without boosting) they must reroll a single die for this attack.

Example: A Colossal is in melee with an enemy that is completely within its right firing arc, and the player rolls before declaring which weapon they are using. Ignoring ranged weapons, choose the first melee weapon in the Colossal's right arc, following top to bottom, left to right, to determine which weapon they attacked with.

Rynth
09-09-2013, 11:03 AM
How does this ruling apply?
Rapid Fire isn't a Special Attack, and this ruling only mentions melee weapons.

xenwall
09-09-2013, 01:03 PM
I think what the OP is concerned with is people purposefully not rolling his Metal Storm d3, taking the big gun shot, then rolling the d3s in an attempt to cheat somehow, saying they forgot. First off, willingly breaking the rules is cheating, so deal with that with whatever brand of fire you prefer. But honestly, in this situation, it doesn't affect gameplay at all since once they've fired the big gun they're locked into initials. If anything, they're hurting themselves, because it's knowledge that would otherwise have, but are not taking into account. It's like rolling your d3s, but not looking at the dice until after you resolve your big gun shot. In this game of Schrodinger's Rapid Fire, the Stormwall owner always loses since they're merely denying themselves information. As the d3 roll is mandatory there is no "GOTCHA" play here, so simmer down, be a kinder person, and make your opponent roll his d3s and go about his activation.

Mr. Golden Deal
09-09-2013, 03:21 PM
I think what the OP is concerned with is people purposefully not rolling his Metal Storm d3, taking the big gun shot, then rolling the d3s in an attempt to cheat somehow, saying they forgot. First off, willingly breaking the rules is cheating, so deal with that with whatever brand of fire you prefer. But honestly, in this situation, it doesn't affect gameplay at all since once they've fired the big gun they're locked into initials. If anything, they're hurting themselves, because it's knowledge that would otherwise have, but are not taking into account. It's like rolling your d3s, but not looking at the dice until after you resolve your big gun shot. In this game of Schrodinger's Rapid Fire, the Stormwall owner always loses since they're merely denying themselves information. As the d3 roll is mandatory there is no "GOTCHA" play here, so simmer down, be a kinder person, and make your opponent roll his d3s and go about his activation.
Conversely, a player looking to eliminate 1 or 2 key models with Big Gun attacks could see if they kill their intended targets first, then, since they don't have any more models they wanted to kill any more, place Covering Fire. If they miss attacks (or the model makes their Tough check, etc.) they could make Metal Storm attacks to attempt to finish the model off.

SpecialK
09-09-2013, 03:41 PM
Conversely, a player looking to eliminate 1 or 2 key models with Big Gun attacks could see if they kill their intended targets first, then, since they don't have any more models they wanted to kill any more, place Covering Fire. If they miss attacks (or the model makes their Tough check, etc.) they could make Metal Storm attacks to attempt to finish the model off.

That's what I thought skimming this thread, but if I'm reading Covering Fire correctly, you're allowed to place them even if you've rolled a d3 and then decide after. Has this ever been covered?

Crate123
09-09-2013, 03:50 PM
That's what I thought skimming this thread, but if I'm reading Covering Fire correctly, you're allowed to place them even if you've rolled a d3 and then decide after. Has this ever been covered?

This has been covered before and you are not allowed to do that. Basically if you're rolling the D3 you have chosen to make initial attacks and not place covering fire templates.
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?150286-Rapid-Fire-and-Stormwall&p=1944130&highlight=stormwall+covering+fire#post1944130

imbob
09-09-2013, 07:37 PM
So if you dont roll your d3, you are stuck with covering fire?

SnethTB
09-09-2013, 09:08 PM
You can perform many illegal actions and say it was an accident. You can't force honesty.
It's a game.

Archdeluxe
09-10-2013, 03:39 AM
Xenwall, you state that "the d3 roll is mandatory" on the metal storm weapons. On this I agree, but only after the decision to use these specific weapons for initial attacks has been made. If you choose to make initial attacks with ranged weapons on a Jack, I don't recall any rule making an attack with each weapon mandatory. In fact, covering fire would be useless if there were such a rule.

SpecialK
09-10-2013, 04:08 AM
So just to clarify: when a Stormwall's combat action starts, they either have to say they're doing Rapid Fire or Covering Fire before even firing the Big Gun?

Obviously this would not apply if they opt to do a power attack or something else in place of their initials.

Archdeluxe
09-10-2013, 05:12 AM
So just to clarify: when a Stormwall's combat action starts, they either have to say they're doing Rapid Fire or Covering Fire before even firing the Big Gun?

Obviously this would not apply if they opt to do a power attack or something else in place of their initials.

Yes, that's almost exactly what the new ruling linked in the OP says. This thread is just to figure out what to do when that doesn't happen.

DarkLegacy
09-10-2013, 05:20 AM
Checking...

John McForester
12-11-2013, 05:13 AM
I know the previews post says "checking", but... Is choosing to make initial attacks compulsory? The rules say "a model can make one normal ranged attack with each of its ranged weapons", which I always understood as "you can choose to forfeit any of these attacks", like when Calaban charges a feralgeist and bites it but doesn't use melee weapon.
I mean, you could also activate Galleon and declare "I will make initial attack with the harpoon and forfeit all other weapons".
I would take a non-rolled rapid fire as a choice not to make initial attacks with the weapon. I mean, I'm not going to "gotcha" my opponent out of his attacks, I would probably let a player rewind back to making the choice unless he clearly intentionally wanted to wait for the results of something else (main weapon) to adjust his choice. I'd remind them how it is supposed to work, and be unforgiving on their next turn activation (whether as a player or as a TO).

Stormpuppy_Infantry
12-11-2013, 05:36 AM
They will answer when it is done.

And choose to do ranged attack does not means that you must shoot at anyone you can. You just choose to shot this turn, not choose to must attack something.

Saraminss
12-11-2013, 05:55 AM
if the game state is rewound after thier first attack so they can roll the d3 for rapid fire they should also be rerolling their first attack. the game has been rewound to before their first attack after all.

TerTer
12-11-2013, 05:59 AM
I think this is sportsmanship. I never encountered a problem with opponent, when he says i attack with big guns, then decides if he want's to roll for rapid fire or place covering fire. I don't see this as a problem as it makes the game go faster. And if you decide to attack with rapid fire but forgot to roll, just roll it then and move one ;) I don't see a problem here.

Saraminss
12-11-2013, 06:26 AM
the rules portion of this is wether it is allowed to go back and reroll. either way players should know and be able to explain to an opponent why. I certainly want to know if it is simply a matter of go back and roll your d3 because you forgot, or if it is a matter of ... I am sorry but you are not allowed to now go back and add the extra 1 to 2 attacks... and why.

if it not a valid option and you decide to allow it anyway that is all good sportsmanship, but if it is allowed and you refuse it is important to know before your opponent starts telling you you are wrong, and you finding out you are indeed wrong.

that being said I do believe the state should be rewound but that attacks would have to be rerolled.

Omnus
12-11-2013, 07:22 AM
For the purpose of convention level events, if you do not declare covering fire or rapid fire, the default is rapid fire.

It is the responsibility of both players to maintain a proper game state. This is no exception. Both players would likely recieve a warning.