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bitterfun
04-06-2010, 11:22 PM
I just need a bit of clarification in case this comes up.

Prowl gives a model stealth if they are in anything that provides concealment, more specifically for this question a cloud effect.

Alchemical Mask ignores cloud effects.

Would a model still benefit from Prowl if they were standing in a cloud effect and a model with an Alchemical Mask was attempting to do a normal ranged attack from 5.1+"?



I'm 95% sure the model would not benefit from Prowl, but I just want to make sure I'm not over thinking this one.

Cloud-Gatherer
04-06-2010, 11:25 PM
The cloud is still there, and the model with Prowl is still in it. Prowl still functions.

bitterfun
04-06-2010, 11:31 PM
The cloud is still there, and the model with Prowl is still in it. Prowl still functions.


So even if the model doesn't get the concealment from the cloud the model still has stealth???

Cloud-Gatherer
04-06-2010, 11:41 PM
Yes, because the cloud is still there and Prowl's condition (model must be in something that grants concealment) is still met. The model doesn't have to be benefiting from Concealment, it just has to physically be in a thing that grants it.

Epy00n
04-07-2010, 12:22 AM
i think the op is confusing prowl with camoflauge, with camo, you only get the extra def while benefiting from concealment

KujakuDM
04-07-2010, 02:43 AM
prowl actualy has 2 conditions, bieng in smoke, or gaining concealment.

dhow tocor
04-07-2010, 04:39 AM
Well Alchemical Mask ignores two things in regards to clouds:

1) LOS. But even without Alchemical mask a model could draw LOS to a Stealthed model in the cloud.
2) Resolving Attacks. Normally you get Concealment in a cloud. Alchemical Mask ignores that bonus.

Valander
04-07-2010, 09:28 AM
Prowl - This model gains Stealth ICON while within terrain that provides concealment, the AOE of a spell that provides concealment, or the AOE of a cloud effect.

This text does not say that the model with Prowl has to benefit from concealment, just be in something that provides it.

Matlon
04-07-2010, 10:37 AM
I do not think that you would get prowl from a cloud effect if the shooter has alchemical mask. The alchemical mask ignores the cloud effect for line of site, because they ignore the cloud a model in the cloud has not meet the requirements of being in a cloud effect against the model that has the alchemical mask.

This would also kill concealment from cloud effects versus alchemical mask.

Cloud-Gatherer
04-07-2010, 10:47 AM
I do not think that you would get prowl from a cloud effect if the shooter has alchemical mask. The alchemical mask ignores the cloud effect for line of site, because they ignore the cloud a model in the cloud has not meet the requirements of being in a cloud effect against the model that has the alchemical mask.
No. A model ignoring cloud effects does not mean that the cloud effect is not there. Since the cloud is still there, a model with Prowl can still be in it, which is the ONLY requirement - physical placement of the model. Prowl does not require a model to benefit from concealment (unlike, say, Camouflage) - only to be within terrain that grants concealment, the AOE of a spell that grants concealment, or the AOE of a cloud effect. Whether a model can ignore any of those things is irrelevant.

Mix Master Gilgamesh
04-07-2010, 11:28 AM
This is very similar to a model gaining prowl in the forest against a model that has Hunter or Treewalker.


Alchemical Mask - This model ignores gas effects. When determining LOS or resolving attacks, this model ignores cloud effects.

You ignore the cloud, but it doesn't mean the model with prowl isn't in the cloud. Hence that model still has stealth.

ptx1
04-09-2010, 09:39 AM
Doesn't this rule take care of this issue?

From the rulebook:

Situations can occur where two special rules conflict. Use
the following guidelines, in order, to resolve special rules
interactions.
...
Special rules stating that something ?cannot? happen
override rules stating that the same thing ?can? or
?must? occur. (Rules directing or describing actions
or circumstances are treated as if they used ?must.?
Examples include ?Gain an additional die,? ?Knocked
down models stand up,? and ?This model gains cover.?)

Putting this into context:
Alchemical Mask says "this model ignores cloud effects"
Prowl says "This model gains Stealth while within ... the AOE of a cloud effect".

So Alchemical Mask says Stealth from the cloud effect "cannot" be ignored, while Prowl says the model "can" gain Stealth from the cloud effect. Alchemical Mask overrides Prowl. Its as if the cloud effect never existed.

Cloud-Gatherer
04-09-2010, 09:56 AM
Doesn't this rule take care of this issue?
...
Its as if the cloud effect never existed.
The answer to your question is "no," and there is absolutely nothing in the rules that supports your closing statement. The cloud does still exist, whether a model ignores it or not. Since the cloud still exists, a model with Prowl can still be in it. If a model with Prowl is within the AOE of a cloud effect, it gains Stealth. That's it. That's the requirement. Not "if this model is benefiting from Concealment because it is in bla bla bla...," just if the model is within the AOE. Which it is.

Tarzen
04-09-2010, 10:07 AM
Doesn't this rule take care of this issue?

Putting this into context:
Alchemical Mask says "this model ignores cloud effects"
Prowl says "This model gains Stealth while within ... the AOE of a cloud effect".

So Alchemical Mask says Stealth from the cloud effect "cannot" be ignored, while Prowl says the model "can" gain Stealth from the cloud effect. Alchemical Mask overrides Prowl. Its as if the cloud effect never existed.

Except that you are mixing two things that have nothing to do with one another.

As said, a model w prowl gins stealth for being in a cloud or concealment.
And alchemical mask says that the other model ignores said cloud.

The conditions for prowl are still there, the model gains stealth because he IS IN the cloud. The model with the mask can still shoot at the stealthed model, and ignores concealment, but the target has met the requirements for stealth to be active.

n647
04-09-2010, 11:35 AM
asdf...

Is the model with prowl is in terrain that provides concealment or in smoke? yes, then it has stealth period.
The rule depends on the model position, no who is targeting him, or how.

Matlon
04-10-2010, 07:36 AM
.
The rule depends on the model position, no who is targeting him, or how.

that is wrong I am sorry to say. I admit I can not argue the cloud one do to the wording on it, but the other 2/3 of the wording can be. It does stat that while within terrain that provides concealment, the AOE of a spell that provides concealment. Because of that if you have a way to ignore concealment in those to circumstance then you also ignore prowl. A couple of example of this would be things like eyeless site, or the The Old Witch of Khador's augury.

So yes it does matter on who is targeting him/her, and/or how they are targeting that model.

Something tells me that if there is any more posting on this subject it should be from a purple name at this point and that this forum should be locked to stop this from expanding in to a yelling match.

jonconcarne
04-10-2010, 08:35 AM
that is wrong I am sorry to say. I admit I can not argue the cloud one do to the wording on it, but the other 2/3 of the wording can be. It does stat that while within terrain that provides concealment, the AOE of a spell that provides concealment. Because of that if you have a way to ignore concealment in those to circumstance then you also ignore prowl. A couple of example of this would be things like eyeless site, or the The Old Witch of Khador's augury.

So yes it does matter on who is targeting him/her, and/or how they are targeting that model.

Something tells me that if there is any more posting on this subject it should be from a purple name at this point and that this forum should be locked to stop this from expanding in to a yelling match.

Well, it doesn't have to be a yelling match if everyone can stay civil, so let's just keep it at that.

But back OT. Why does it matter who is targeting them? Ignoring something does not make it not exist. Just because you can ignore concealment does not mean that the model is not in an AOE that provide them with concealment. Prowl is not like Camouflage where you have to have one to have the other. Prowl depends on placement.

The key is what is the trigger to the effect, which you seem to be missing here. Camouflage triggers on having concealment, while Prowl triggers on being in some feature (whether it is terrain, a cloud effect AOE, etc) that has the ability to grant concealment.

Tarzen
04-10-2010, 04:35 PM
that is wrong I am sorry to say. I admit I can not argue the cloud one do to the wording on it, but the other 2/3 of the wording can be. It does stat that while within terrain that provides concealment, the AOE of a spell that provides concealment. Because of that if you have a way to ignore concealment in those to circumstance then you also ignore prowl. A couple of example of this would be things like eyeless site, or the The Old Witch of Khador's augury.

So yes it does matter on who is targeting him/her, and/or how they are targeting that model.

Something tells me that if there is any more posting on this subject it should be from a purple name at this point and that this forum should be locked to stop this from expanding in to a yelling match.

Or you could look at what was originally asked, in which case your point is moot, as it is the 1/3 that we are talking about.

So, in civil terms, it doesn't matter who is targeting, so long as the target is in a cloud.

kc7sbp
04-10-2010, 10:15 PM
that is wrong I am sorry to say. I admit I can not argue the cloud one do to the wording on it, but the other 2/3 of the wording can be. It does stat that while within terrain that provides concealment, the AOE of a spell that provides concealment. Because of that if you have a way to ignore concealment in those to circumstance then you also ignore prowl. A couple of example of this would be things like eyeless site, or the The Old Witch of Khador's augury.

So yes it does matter on who is targeting him/her, and/or how they are targeting that model.

Something tells me that if there is any more posting on this subject it should be from a purple name at this point and that this forum should be locked to stop this from expanding in to a yelling match.

Sorry, but this is wrong. Just because a targeting model IGNORES concealment doesn't mean that concealment isn't being provided to the targeted model. The concealment is still there, it's just being ignored. While effects that ignore concealment also ignore camouflage, the same is not true for stealth.

The way I see it:

Prowl doesn't specify that stealth is not gained if being targeted by a model that can ignore the conditions that it is dependent upon. So prowl grants stealth to the model upon meeting the conditions specified regardless of all other conditions that don't specifically ignore stealth.

Alchemical mask doesn't specify that it ignores the effects of Prowl, nor does it specify that it ignores abilities/effects conditional on the cloud effect. It simply ignores the cloud effect and targeting/attacking/LOS penalties caused directly by the cloud effect itself. Since Prowl is not part of the cloud effect it is not ignored.

*edited for context*

Oniwasabi
04-11-2010, 03:04 AM
We already have a ruling that Hunter does not ignore Prowl. I seriously doubt that Alchemical Masks will be allowed to ignore Prowl if Hunter doesn't.

dhow tocor
04-12-2010, 02:30 PM
Perhaps I am off in my reasoning here, but here it goes:

Let us compare Camouflage and Prowl:

Camouflage: This model gains +2 DEF when benefiting[ from Concealment or Cover. (emphasis mine)

Prowl: This model gains Stealth while within terrain that provides concealment, the AOE of a spell that provides concealment, or the AOE of a cloud effect. (emphasis mine)

If something ignores Concealment or Cover then in addition to ignoring the DEF bonuses for those, it ignores the DEF bonus for Camouflage since the target model is no longer benefiting from either game effect.

And of top of that Alchemical Mask does not state that it ignores Concealment.

So that's my two cents in favor of a model with Prowl retaining Stealth even if the attacker has Alchemical Mask.

kc7sbp
04-12-2010, 09:52 PM
misread post.

Stevo
04-12-2010, 10:21 PM
Actually, it does matter who is targeting. A model with True Sight, Arcane Precision, or Eyeless Sight (for example) would change this situation.:)

Stealth is gained when a model with Prowl is within a terrain feature that grants concealment or a cloud effect. This advantage has nothing to do with a model targeting it (unless that model also ignores stealth). Stealth exists on the model if it is meeting the criteria of Prowl. Once that criteria is met, the targeting model must be eligible to hit the target (either by being within 5" or having True Sight or Eyeless Sight or Arcane Precision).

If the model ignores Concealment or Cloud effects, it only ignores the effects that Concealment or Clouds provide, and Prowl is not one of those effects. Alchemical Mask would allow you to ignore the bonus to DEF that Concealment and Clouds grant, and it would allow you to ignore Clouds for LOS purposes.

To make a long story short, Alchemical Mask would only ignore Prowl if Prowl was a benefit conferred by Clouds or Concealment. It isn't. Prowl is an ability that Alchemical Mask does not explicitly ignore.

Tarzen
04-13-2010, 01:29 AM
Actually, it does matter. A model with True Sight, Arcane Precision, or Eyeless Sight (for example) would change this situation.:)

Stealth is gained when a model with Prowl is within a terrain feature that grants concealment or a cloud effect. This advantage has nothing to do with a model targeting it (unless that model also ignores stealth). Stealth exists on the model if it is meeting the criteria of Prowl. Once that criteria is met, the targeting model must be eligible to hit the target (either by being within 5" or having True Sight or Eyeless Sight or Arcane Precision).

If the model ignores Concealment or Cloud effects, it only ignores the effects that Concealment or Clouds provide, and Prowl is not one of those effects. Alchemical Mask would allow you to ignore the bonus to DEF that Concealment and Clouds grant, and it would allow you to ignore Clouds for LOS purposes.

To make a long story short, Alchemical Mask would only ignore Prowl if Prowl was a benefit conferred by Clouds or Concealment. It isn't. Prowl is an ability that Alchemical Mask does not explicitly ignore.

Stevo, not to be rude but what are you talking about? Really, I don't get it.

You quoted me asking a poster to read the thread and what the OP asked. Then you proceeded to run off on a total tangent that has little, if anything, to do with said question.

Are you really going to say that arcane precision has anything to do with prowls effects being contingent upon terrain? Really? Can we just agree that abilities that ignore stealth, in fact, ignore stealth... No reason to say that a model with eyeless sight would have problems targeting a model with prowl in a cloud. Further, not sure there are any models in the game with alchemical masks and arcane precision, eyeless sight, or true sight, so again, moot point that has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

Stevo
04-13-2010, 06:45 AM
Fair enough, Stealth and the abilities that ignore it are tangential. My commentary about Arcane Precision, Eyeless Sight, and True Sight was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

My post did include an explanation of Alchemical Mask vs. Prowl, though. The only benefits Alchemical Mask ignores are those provided by Concealment or Clouds. Prowl is neither of those. Prowl grants an ability to a model in Concealment or Clouds. Alchemical Mask doesn't state that models aren't considered to be within terrain or cloud effects. Therefore Alchemical Mask doesn't negate the benefits of Prowl.