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View Full Version : Failed charges and turning to face directly



Aries37
04-07-2010, 04:18 AM
Do you turn to face your target directly even if the charge fails? I can't see anything which would suggest otherwise.

Mootaz
04-07-2010, 04:25 AM
Yes, you do.

dhow tocor
04-07-2010, 04:25 AM
I would have thought that since your activation immediately ends that your facing does not change. But I will go with Mootaz.

blue loki
04-07-2010, 04:45 AM
You must complete your movement in order to fail the charge, and the last step in movement completion for a charge is to turn to face. So, you turn to face before you fail.

Aries37
04-07-2010, 05:48 AM
Most excellent, thanks

Aries37
04-08-2010, 10:45 AM
Okey another problem, if the charge fails due to moving in and out of having the target in your melee range do you still have to turn to face? Also would you have to complete the rest of the charge movement?

dhow tocor
04-08-2010, 11:06 AM
Okey another problem, if the charge fails due to moving in and out of having the target in your melee range do you still have to turn to face? Also would you have to complete the rest of the charge movement?

Same as above. At the end of your charge movement [whether success or fail] the charging model turns to face its target directly.

The above line is from the end of the paragraph which started on pg. 46 under Charging.

Aries37
04-08-2010, 11:12 AM
Cool so would I have to complete the charge movement as well? It does say that if I move out of melee range the charge fails, so not sure if I still have to finish the move, then turn to face, before the activation ending....

luxionmk2
04-09-2010, 12:55 PM
Okey another problem, if the charge fails due to moving in and out of having the target in your melee range do you still have to turn to face? Also would you have to complete the rest of the charge movement?

This shouldn't happen voluntarily as it would not be legal to let your target leave your melee range.


Once the charge target is in the charging model?s melee range, it must stay in the charging model?s melee range for the entire charge or the charge fails.
*emphasis added by me

Valander
04-09-2010, 01:22 PM
That doesn't mean that you can't move in such a way that the target leaves your melee range, just that if you do, the charge fails. Watch:


Once the charge target is in the charging model's melee range, it must stay in the charging models range for the entire charge or the charge fails.

"for the entire charge or the charge fails" indicates that there is no prohibition on moving out. If that were the case, the wording would be closer to "once the charge target is in the charging model's melee range, the charging model cannot move so that the target is out of its melee range." Which is not what it says.

petegrrrr
04-09-2010, 04:22 PM
Yeah, it's one of the odd little quirks of mark 2, but seems totally legit.

Caecus Scius
04-09-2010, 06:13 PM
Basically, Aries wants to abuse this thusly...


Karchev activates and used feat and casts his spells for the turn. Then he charges at a wardog 5" ahead of him, but moves the full 9", moving into and then out of the front arc of the wardog, now 4" ahead of the dog, having failed his charge due to not being in melee range (or rather leaving melee range during the charge movement) he turns to face the wardog... then his jacks get placed behind him and ruin face. He is effectively using this tactic to get Karchev to move 9" in the direction he wants, while still getting to cast all his spells and use feat, and still face backwards so the jacks that he is towing are able to beat wholesale @$$....



While it looks to be legal, is this the intent of the rule?

petegrrrr
04-09-2010, 06:20 PM
RAI vs RAW is the road to madness. Lets not go down it again :D

Just play as it reads until PP clarifies (or doesn't clarify).

SomeoneGNU
04-09-2010, 06:48 PM
Basically, Aries wants to abuse this thusly...


Karchev activates and used feat and casts his spells for the turn. Then he charges at a wardog 5" ahead of him, but moves the full 9", moving into and then out of the front arc of the wardog, now 4" ahead of the dog, having failed his charge due to not being in melee range (or rather leaving melee range during the charge movement) he turns to face the wardog... then his jacks get placed behind him and ruin face. He is effectively using this tactic to get Karchev to move 9" in the direction he wants, while still getting to cast all his spells and use feat, and still face backwards so the jacks that he is towing are able to beat wholesale @$$....



While it looks to be legal, is this the intent of the rule?

I thought a charge goes something like:

Draw line of sight.
Move directly TOWARDS the target of the target.
Once you hit the target, your movement stops.

How could you possibly charge past the target?

jonconcarne
04-09-2010, 07:05 PM
I thought a charge goes something like:

Draw line of sight.
Move directly TOWARDS the target of the target.
Once you hit the target, your movement stops.

How could you possibly charge past the target?

you don't have to charge in a straight line to your target, you can charge in a line that brings you closer to them.

y.....
.......
x....B
......
......
......
A

A charges at B, moves along a straight line to point x, then turns to face model B, with model B in his melee range. To do this, it usually helps to have reach.

Edit: to charge past, you can just keep going past point x, to say, point y.

SomeoneGNU
04-09-2010, 07:19 PM
you don't have to charge in a straight line to your target, you can charge in a line that brings you closer to them.

y.....
.......
x....B
......
......
......
A

A charges at B, moves along a straight line to point x, then turns to face model B, with model B in his melee range. To do this, it usually helps to have reach.

Edit: to charge past, you can just keep going past point x, to say, point y.


Interesting. I was always under the impression you had to charge directly to them. That could've changed a few things, but not much.

dhow tocor
04-10-2010, 05:51 AM
Basically, Aries wants to abuse this thusly...


Karchev activates and used feat and casts his spells for the turn. Then he charges at a wardog 5" ahead of him, but moves the full 9", moving into and then out of the front arc of the wardog, now 4" ahead of the dog, having failed his charge due to not being in melee range (or rather leaving melee range during the charge movement) he turns to face the wardog... then his jacks get placed behind him and ruin face. He is effectively using this tactic to get Karchev to move 9" in the direction he wants, while still getting to cast all his spells and use feat, and still face backwards so the jacks that he is towing are able to beat wholesale @$$....



While it looks to be legal, is this the intent of the rule?


You just have to keep in mind that the threat range for any Jack within 2" of him starts just shy of 11" past his current position.

The one thing you can't do is charge one of your own guys and then intentionally stop shy of melee range. The charge is SPD+3". Apart from contacting another model, or impassable terrain or some other effect which involuntarily stops your movement you continue until you reach your charge distance or voluntarily stop your movement in melee range of your target.

Basically stopping your charge movement is voluntary once you are in melee range of your target.

You could write the rule that prevents you from exiting the melee range of your charge target, but you don't need a target that you can get to to declare a charge. Nothing prevents you from casting a spell or using a feat and then charging a model that is 20" away but in LOS. This tactic has been around since the beginning.

SteveBob316
04-11-2010, 03:17 AM
You could write the rule that prevents you from exiting the melee range of your charge target, but you don't need a target that you can get to to declare a charge. Nothing prevents you from casting a spell or using a feat and then charging a model that is 20" away but in LOS. This tactic has been around since the beginning.

And for most units it's a very useful tactic.

But in this instance, Karchev doesn't get to do a near-180 right at the end of the charge. The issue at hand is whether he can pull off the full-on powerslide at 9" instead of 6. It's a needly little rule question with huge implications where Tow is involved.

Aries37
04-11-2010, 03:28 AM
After staring at the rules for a prolonged period of time I think there are two possiblities:

1) When you move out of melee during a charge the whole charge counts as failed. A failed charge allows ending movement and a turn to face before resolving as failed (as this is how normal failed charges as resolved), then activation ends immediately.

2) Moving out of melee is one condition for a failed charge, and the other is to end movement out of melee after turning. Both cause activations to end immediately, but the first will not allow either turning or movement to end as it counts as failed immediately and you skip all other steps. However if this is the intention it would have been much easier just to say if you move out of melee activation ends immediately.

If someone in the know could clarify that would be great.

brotherscott
04-11-2010, 02:45 PM
Is this kind of what you are looking for??

Prime MK II (.pdf) page 45, Charging:

"Declare a charge and its target before moving the model.
The charging model must have LOS to a model to declare
it as a charge target. After declaring a charge, the charging
model turns to face any direction that will bring it to within
melee range of its target, ignoring terrain, the distance to
the charge target, and other models. The charging model
then advances its current SPD plus 3 ˝ in that direction, in a
straight line. The charging model cannot voluntarily stop its
movement until its target is in its melee range, then it can end
this movement at any point. Once the charge target is in the
charging model’s melee range, it must stay in the charging
model’s melee range for the entire charge or the charge fails."

Arigeta
04-11-2010, 02:57 PM
"From the desk of the Post Mortum Equine Abuse Council"
(we beat a dead horse with :Reach: and :Magic-Wpn:)
For us Karchev players wth Tow, the remaining questions are...

1) I charge a target, I can over shoot leaving my 2" melee range and doing so, my activation ends. Karchev has the 2" reach, so when I reach the 2.25" distance past my target, I end activation, whether I have moved my full distance or not. Then per charge rules, I turn to face my target and that is it?

2) I charge "toward" a target. In a strait line, I skirt to the side, staying outside of my melee range. As long as I am moving "toward" the target I am active. The moment that I pass the target and the distance begins to grow, I am no longer moving "toward" the target, activation ends.

...K..... - .........
...|..... - K........
...|.t... - |....t..
...|..... - |........
...|..... - |.......
...x..... - x........

vintersbastard
04-12-2010, 05:20 AM
For us Karchev players wth Tow, the remaining questions are...

1) I charge a target, I can over shoot leaving my 2" melee range and doing so, my activation ends. Karchev has the 2" reach, so when I reach the 2.25" distance past my target, I end activation, whether I have moved my full distance or not. Then per charge rules, I turn to face my target and that is it?
I'm not sure where you get distance limitations from. I don't know which of the alternatives that Aries37 has offered is the correct one, but neither of them would give you a quarter inch one.
Additionally, if moving in a way that makes the charge target leave melee range forces an end to activation immediately at that point of movement, you won't get to turn around.


2) I charge "toward" a target. In a strait line, I skirt to the side, staying outside of my melee range. As long as I am moving "toward" the target I am active. The moment that I pass the target and the distance begins to grow, I am no longer moving "toward" the target, activation ends.
This is definitely not allowed. You must choose a direction for your charge movement that would get it within melee range, only ignoring the movement distance available, terrain and other models.

Gooch
04-12-2010, 12:41 PM
i think what he is saying is that he is voluntarily moving that extra .25" in order to fail the charge (so he doesnt kill his wardog) i think what all of the karchev players really want to know is when you fail a charge do you turn to face and then your activation ends because you are no longer in melee, or does your activation end immediately and you dont turn.

dhow tocor
04-12-2010, 02:04 PM
Additionally, if moving in a way that makes the charge target leave melee range forces an end to activation immediately at that point of movement, you won't get to turn around.
.

The Charge rule states that at the end of your charge movement you turn to face your target (which is why Mooatz responded as he did above). There are three times this happens:

1) You voluntarily stop your movement within melee range of your target.
2) You reach your maximum charge distance (SPD + 3")
3) Your movement is involuntarily stopped by contacting another model, impassible terrain, or other game effect.

After you complete your charge movement (voluntarily or involuntarily), you turn to face your target then if you are not in melee range of your target then your charge fails and your activation ends immediately.

Aries37
04-14-2010, 01:53 AM
Thanks dhow tocor, but I think at this point the mass of different opinions can only really be resolved with input from an infernal.

*Khador players wait anxiously*

Macallan
04-14-2010, 02:00 AM
Is this kind of what you are looking for??
The charging model cannot voluntarily stop its
movement until its target is in its melee range, then it can end
this movement at any point. Once the charge target is in the
charging model?s melee range, it must stay in the charging
model?s melee range for the entire charge or the charge fails."
It cannot be clearer.