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MoN4RcH
01-12-2014, 04:11 AM
A model 2 handed thrown that hits a model behind a wall but doesn't have space to be placed down between the model hit and the wall does it:

(a) Knock both models down and cause the appropriate damage then the thrown model is placed back behind the wall it was thrown over.
(b) The thrown model can not be placed down on the wall so never contacts the target of the 2 handed thrown but is knocked down and placed as close to the wall as possible but takes damage but no collateral additional dice.

option (a) makes sence to me......

The Captain
01-12-2014, 05:44 AM
A model 2 handed thrown that hits a model behind a wall but doesn't have space to be placed down between the model hit and the wall does it:

(a) Knock both models down and cause the appropriate damage then the thrown model is placed back behind the wall it was thrown over.
(b) The thrown model can not be placed down on the wall so never contacts the target of the 2 handed thrown but is knocked down and placed as close to the wall as possible but takes damage but no collateral additional dice.

option (a) makes sence to me......

The target of the throw is never contacted in this scenario, so it won't take collateral damage and won't be knocked down. Like you guessed, the model cannot be positioned on the wall.

The thrown model takes target normally, contacting the wall in this case.

Gusdergott
01-12-2014, 05:55 AM
Shouldn't it follow the rules of least disturbance and contact the target and then move it so that it can land?

MoN4RcH
01-12-2014, 06:13 AM
I think it is negative play experience if puting a model behind a wall stops them getting hit by a thrown model as power attacks are situational at best and this makes them more limited =(

Wraithe
01-12-2014, 06:18 AM
Prime pg 55:
Unlike when a model is slammed, rough terrain and obstacles do not affect this movement but the thrown model still stops if it contacts an obstruction or a model with an equal or larger sized base.

If the wall is over one inch high, it's an obstruction, stop before wall. If the wall is less than one inch high, the thrown model will pass over and stop when it hits the model. Follow rule of least disturbance.

vintersbastard
01-12-2014, 08:38 AM
If the wall is less than one inch high, the thrown model will pass over and stop when it hits the model. Follow rule of least disturbance.
The thrown model cannot land in the spot where it would land, least disturbance doesn't apply (as it only cares about other models). The thrown model stops short before the wall, without contacting the secondary target (cf. here (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?48412-Landing-on-a-Wall&p=677691&viewfull=1#post677691)).

MoN4RcH
01-12-2014, 08:56 AM
Thanks for answer but i really think this needs to be looked at by PP as it makes no sense and is a negative play experience.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
01-12-2014, 08:59 AM
Thanks for answer but i really think this needs to be looked at by PP as it makes no sense and is a negative play experience.

Truth is truth, regardless how bitter it is.

Because it was ruled for that so it will be, and also it is reasonable to both model is not contact with each other because it can be blocked by wall.

Leonard_Dukes
01-12-2014, 09:08 AM
See also this thread which is (currently) on the same page as the OP's question: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?187241-Flag-and-model-moved-by-a-throw

The question there involves a similar setup, save that a Flag is in the way instead of a wall. In both questions, the line of reasoning is the same:

Does the thrown model pass through the wall/flag on its way to the target? Yes.

Does the thrown model move completely through the wall/flag before contacting the target? No.

Is the thrown model allowed to stop on top of the wall/flag? No.

Is the wall/flag able to be moved in accordance with the rule of least disturbance? No.

The thrown model stops in contact with the wall/flag, and does not contact the target.

TheUnknownMercenary
01-12-2014, 10:56 AM
A model cannot stop on top on a linear obstacle. The thrown model stops before the linear obstacle and does not contact the model behind the wall.

SunTsu
01-12-2014, 12:29 PM
The thrown model cannot land in the spot where it would land, least disturbance doesn't apply (as it only cares about other models). The thrown model stops short before the wall, without contacting the secondary target (cf. here (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?48412-Landing-on-a-Wall&p=677691&viewfull=1#post677691)).


With a double handed throw, the thrown model (model A) stops it's thrown movement when it contacts the other model (Model B). There is no overlapping of models which is the only time you use the Rule of Least Diusturbance. So option 2 is not correct.
No you did not clarify if the wall was an obstacle, obstruction or a linear obstaclce.
1) If the Wall is an obstacle, then Model A would be able to be on top of the wall and this works just fine.
2) If the Wall is an obstruction, then Model A would stop it's thrown movement when it hit the wall.
3) If the Wall is a linear obstacle, then Model A would not be able to land on top of the wall because a model cannot be on top of the linear obstacle, so the model would have to be placed before the wall where it's base would fit.

Note that TheUnknownMercenary never said that thrown model don't contact the target. Rydiafan said on post 6, but he's not an infernal. And that thread isn't closed.
TUM instead implicitly said that it don't works this way, when he wrote:

2) If the Wall is an obstruction, then Model A would stop it's thrown movement when it hit the wall.
3) If the Wall is a linear obstacle, then Model A would not be able to land on top of the wall
note the difference between "stop the thrown movement" and "not be able to land".

The right answer should be "a", it works the same way as the flag.

SunTsu
01-12-2014, 12:38 PM
A model cannot stop on top on a linear obstacle. The thrown model stops before the linear obstacle and does not contact the model behind the wall.

Ops... :-)
It doesn't seems similar to others similar situations rules, but I follow infernals laws. ^_^

solkan
01-12-2014, 01:45 PM
It does follow the same rules as the similar situations. You're missing the difference between the situations.

The rules for being thrown, like the rules for charging, allow for the possibility that the movement ends before reaching the destination. (The thrown model moves from its initial position "until ...") Because of that allowance, the movement ends before the model positions would become invalid and necessitate Least Disturbance.

SunTsu
01-12-2014, 06:08 PM
I don't want absolutely question infernarls words. It isn't neither my intention as aspiration. =)
My only aim is to offer a point of view and discuss about a rule situation that is IMO interesting to analize and discuss.
Obviously infernals are infernarls and in all way they rules is always fine! In the end it's a game and the final requirement is only to establish common rules.

Said it, warmachine is caracterized by a quality of rules thet is exellent. And this is the most interesting aspect of this wargame.
Something happens some strange situation or rule, and here we can discuss about, with the only purpose to make this game better, if possible.

I think this is one of those strange ruled situation. =)


It does follow the same rules as the similar situations. You're missing the difference between the situations.

The rules for being thrown, like the rules for charging, allow for the possibility that the movement ends before reaching the destination. (The thrown model moves from its initial position "until ...") Because of that allowance, the movement ends before the model positions would become invalid and necessitate Least Disturbance.

In both situations the movement allow the possibility that the movement ends before reaching the destination, simply because the movement is the same: a throw.
May I resume all these???
So...

1- There is a model that is throw vs a target. It moves throw a flag (because incorporeal & throw rules states this) and collide with the target.

2- There is a model that is throw vs a target. It moves throw a wall (because linear obstacle & throw rules states this) and collide with the target.

1a- There is a model that is throw vs a target. It moves throw a flag (because incorporeal & throw rules states this). There isn't enough space to put the model at its destination because rules states that no model can end its movement overlapping an incorporeal model, so the models collide with target and it's placed according the less disturbance rules.

2a- There is a model that is throw vs a target. It moves throw a wall (because linear obstacle & throw rules states this). There isn't enough space to put the model at its destination because rules states that no model can end its movement overlapping a linear obstacle, so the models DON'T collide with target and it stops its movement before the wall and it ISN'T placed according the less disturbance rules.


I think that all these can be valid rules, of course.
But it isn't only counter intuitive at all, these are also apparently not coherent rules.
Same words for both, two different resolution...
There is obviously the possibility, even the probabilty I say, that I'm missing something fundamental into the rules.
But in this moment at my eyes the two situations are almost identical.

So finally, if we want apply a logical flow to the rules, both should have the same resolution: or the model contact the target in both situations, or don't in both. It can be ruled in a different way, but recalling the right rules will probably become a mnemonical exercise for players.
Only my two unuseful cents... ;) 8°D

TheUnknownMercenary
01-12-2014, 07:38 PM
You cannot compare Flags to linear obstacles.

With a flag the reason a thrown model is moved by the least disturbance rule is because the flag is a stationary model and since the stationary model cannot be moved by the least distrubance rule then the thrown model is moved instead.

With a linear obstance, since a model cannot stop on top on the linear obstancle, it stops before the linear obstacle and never contacts the model on the other side of the linear obstacle.

SunTsu
01-13-2014, 01:09 AM
It's a very fuzzy difference. However it's indeed a difference.
Thanks for clarify it to me: I thought it would works in the other way without this post...! ^_^

The Captain
01-13-2014, 05:41 AM
The difference is that between a model (flag) and terrain (wall). Terrain is never subject to least disturbance.

MoN4RcH
01-13-2014, 01:40 PM
I think PP need to have a look at this as the model next to a wall is immune to the throw attack which is a negative play experience.

Both models should be knocked down take the appropriate damage rolls then the model thrown should be placed back the side of the wall he was thrown immediately next to it.