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petetsm
04-13-2010, 03:55 PM
I believe this is the relevant rule:


HORDES PDF pg.19
Once the charge target is in the charging model’s melee range, it must stay in the charging model’s melee range for the entire charge or the charge fails.


Do failed charges end your turn immediately, or only at the end of the movement phase? So if my charging model has 3" of movement left when his charge target leaves his melee range, can he complete his movement?

(This is related to a similar rules question, but this aspect was not fully resolved by the infernal's answer)

kantoboy
04-13-2010, 04:21 PM
don't you have to end your movement to trigger something?

dhow tocor
04-14-2010, 04:02 AM
Your charge movement fails when after completing your charge movement you turn to face your target and you are not in melee range of your charge target

Note: You cannot voluntarily stop your charge movement until you are in melee range of your charge target.

bjorkgnu
04-14-2010, 04:07 AM
Turning to face your charge target is part of the movement for a charge. If you end your charge movement with your charge target in melee range, it is a successful charge, even if said target then immediately moves away before you can attack. AFAIK, there are no abilities that allow a charge target to move away until after the movement is done. So, you charge, end in melee range of target (thus making it a successful charge), target moves away. You cannot move any further, as you have ended your movement, but your activation doesn't immediately end, since it was not a failed charge. If there are other models in your melee range, you can attack them instead, though said attacks will not be charge attacks.

rydiafan
04-14-2010, 04:30 AM
I think you guys have missed OP's question.

We all know you have to continue your charge movement until your target is in melee. We also know that if you continue your movement so that the target is no longer in melee the charge fails. The question is, does the charge fail immediately, and end your movement, or does it fail once you have moved your entire charge distance.

I personally have no idea.

zombie-a-go-go
04-14-2010, 04:30 AM
oops. never mind this post.

Musketeer
04-14-2010, 04:54 AM
I think you guys have missed OP's question.

We all know you have to continue your charge movement until your target is in melee. We also know that if you continue your movement so that the target is no longer in melee the charge fails. The question is, does the charge fail immediately, and end your movement, or does it fail once you have moved your entire charge distance.

I personally have no idea.

That is exactly the question. Wording has changed slightly from MKI. Back then you could not move out of your target's melée range after reaching it in a charge. Now you can. When do you stop moving though.

blue loki
04-14-2010, 05:10 AM
You may stop movement at any point after you first have your target in melee range, up to and including your full charge move, even if at some point after the initial contact your target is no longer in your melee range.

If you never have your target in melee range, you cannot stop until you have moved your full charge move.

dhow tocor
04-14-2010, 05:39 AM
The question is what is the OP after.

Is it:

1) The charging model has moved to a point where it is no longer in melee with the charge target

or

2) The target model has an ability or effect on it which allows it to move when an enemy model ends its movement within a certain distance of it.

rydiafan
04-14-2010, 05:41 AM
You may stop movement at any point after you first have your target in melee range, up to and including your full charge move, even if at some point after the initial contact your target is no longer in your melee range.

If you never have your target in melee range, you cannot stop until you have moved your full charge move.

This is true, UNLESS your charge fails the instant your target is no longer in your melee range, as a failed charge ends your activation immediately.

trazor
04-14-2010, 05:55 AM
I believe the answer to the question is going to be a combine of 2 rules from charging.

rule 1
"Once the charge target is in the charging model's melee range, it must stay in the charging model's melee range for the entire charge or the charge fails"

rule 2
"If a model makes a failed charge during its activation, its activation immediately ends."

So the answer would be, if you charge a model have it enter the charging models melee range then keep moving till the target is no longer in the charging models melee range you just met the requirement for failing a charge hence the charging models activation immediately ends right when the target leaves it's melee range during the movement part of the charge.

At least this is my point of view based on the facts in the book.

rydiafan
04-14-2010, 06:03 AM
I believe the answer to the question is going to be a combine of 2 rules from charging.

rule 1
"Once the charge target is in the charging model's melee range, it must stay in the charging model's melee range for the entire charge or the charge fails"

rule 2
"If a model makes a failed charge during its activation, its activation immediately ends."

So the answer would be, if you charge a model have it enter the charging models melee range then keep moving till the target is no longer in the charging models melee range you just met the requirement for failing a charge hence the charging models activation immediately ends right when the target leaves it's melee range during the movement part of the charge.

At least this is my point of view based on the facts in the book.


Thinking on it, I believe this is my stance as well. The only question remaining is, do you still turn to face your target?

Mr_Smigs
04-14-2010, 06:13 AM
trazor seems to have the right of it.


Thinking on it, I believe this is my stance as well. The only question remaining is, do you still turn to face your target?


no.. you fail and activation ends.
there is no chance/time to turn to face.

trazor
04-14-2010, 06:15 AM
I would have to say no.

Once the charge failed the models activation ended immediately, so it should not be able to turn.

Hjelmen0
04-14-2010, 06:19 AM
trazor seems to have the right of it.




no.. you fail and activation ends.
there is no chance/time to turn to face.

I believe that Trazor is right as well. Good point about not turning to face, Smigs.

Weaselcreature
04-14-2010, 06:47 AM
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=17943

You turn to face your target on a failed charge.
Doesn't seem right in the situation given in this thread, but that's what they say.

blue loki
04-14-2010, 07:06 AM
That's a different situation though Weasel. In the situation in that discussion, the charge does not actually fail until after the model has turned to face its target and found that the target is not in its melee range.

In this situation, the charge fails before movement is completed. I agree with trazor.

dhow tocor
04-14-2010, 07:23 AM
You don't know you've failed your charge until you turn and directly face your target. ( Side note: Even if you have quite obviously failed the charge you still turn to face because that is what you do at the end of your charge movement. Whether it ended voluntarily or involuntarily. If at that point you are not in melee range then you have failed your charge.)

You could charge in such a way that your target is no longer in your melee range, but when you turn to directly face it is now in your melee range.

Remember, stopping movement is voluntary once you are in melee range of your target.

luxionmk2
04-14-2010, 07:31 AM
That's a different situation though Weasel. In the situation in that discussion, the charge does not actually fail until after the model has turned to face its target and found that the target is not in its melee range.

In this situation, the charge fails before movement is completed. I agree with trazor.

I disagree. If charging out of melee will cause the charge to fail right there on the spot, well then the failed charge will also end the charge movement won't it? Regardless, a failed charge is a failed charge, and an Infernal has said that a model will still turn to change facing. It'll still trigger counter-charges, assaults, etc.

Weaselcreature
04-14-2010, 07:39 AM
While I agree with you & Trazor, Loki, that thread was locked by Macallan without addressing the followup of charging past your opponent, leaving us only with Mootaz' statement of "yes, you do."

I think Macallans post of "it cannot be clearer" did not at all address the question at hand (charging past your opponent on purpose), as it obviously is not clear. I would love to have this cleared up, though.

Again, I think Trazor's interrpretation is best, that thread was locked in a way making it wrong, or at best unclear.

brotherscott
04-14-2010, 08:01 AM
I believe this is the relevant rule:



Do failed charges end your turn immediately, or only at the end of the movement phase? So if my charging model has 3" of movement left when his charge target leaves his melee range, can he complete his movement?

(This is related to a similar rules question, but this aspect was not fully resolved by the infernal's answer)


At the end of the model's movement, you check melee range to determine if the charge is successful.

In your example, if you have 3" of movement past the intended target, you can complete that movement, turn to face the target, measure melee range, and your activation ends.

petetsm
04-14-2010, 08:03 AM
I believe the answer to the question is going to be a combine of 2 rules from charging.

rule 1
"Once the charge target is in the charging model's melee range, it must stay in the charging model's melee range for the entire charge or the charge fails"

rule 2
"If a model makes a failed charge during its activation, its activation immediately ends."

So the answer would be, if you charge a model have it enter the charging models melee range then keep moving till the target is no longer in the charging models melee range you just met the requirement for failing a charge hence the charging models activation immediately ends right when the target leaves it's melee range during the movement part of the charge.

At least this is my point of view based on the facts in the book.

Yes, these are the specific rules that I was asking about, thanks for pulling out the rule 2. Playing devil's advocate, the language "makes a failed charge" is open for interpretation. Basically, when does the game "check" that a charge is failed with respect to ending activation?

1) At the exact moment that the "failed charge" flag is set to TRUE, ie when the target model moves out of the charging models melee range.

or

2) The charging model's "movement" step an atomic action, and all other rules and interactions wait to resolve until the movement action is resolved.

I'm still hoping to see an infernal ruling on this, since both of these are valid interpretations by the language of the rules.

Edited to change #2 from a question to a statement.

brotherscott
04-14-2010, 08:05 AM
Yes, these are the specific rules that I was asking about, thanks for pulling out the rule 2. Playing devil's advocate, the language "makes a failed charge" is open for interpretation. Basically, when does the game "check" that a charge is failed?

1) At the exact moment that the "failed charge" flag is set to TRUE, ie when the target model moves out of the charging models melee range.

or

2) Is the charging model's "movement" step an atomic action, and all other rules and interactions wait to resolve until the movement action is resolved?

I'm still hoping to see an infernal ruling on this, since both of these are valid interpretations by the language of the rules.

2) The charging model's "movement" step is an atomic action, and all other rules and interactions wait to resolve until the movement action is resolved?

Mr_Smigs
04-14-2010, 08:13 AM
hmm...



Prime MK II (.pdf) page 45, Charging:

"Declare a charge and its target before moving the model.
The charging model must have LOS to a model to declare
it as a charge target. After declaring a charge, the charging
model turns to face any direction that will bring it to within
melee range of its target, ignoring terrain, the distance to
the charge target, and other models. The charging model
then advances its current SPD plus 3 ˝ in that direction, in a
straight line. The charging model cannot voluntarily stop its
movement until its target is in its melee range, then it can end
this movement at any point. Once the charge target is in the
charging model’s melee range, it must stay in the charging
model’s melee range for the entire charge or the charge fails."


where is the turn to face statement? (going off forum Info, don't have my Prime at work...)
the only one I see is the pre-movement turn.

brotherscott
04-14-2010, 08:21 AM
hmm...



where is the turn to face statement? (going off forum Info, don't have my Prime at work...)
the only one I see is the pre-movement turn.

Because someone did not quote the whole section of the rule:

Prime MK II, page 45 (.pdf), Charging:

"Declare a charge and its target before moving the model.
The charging model must have LOS to a model to declare
it as a charge target. After declaring a charge, the charging
model turns to face any direction that will bring it to within
melee range of its target, ignoring terrain, the distance to
the charge target, and other models. The charging model
then advances its current SPD plus 3 ˝ in that direction, in a
straight line. The charging model cannot voluntarily stop its
movement until its target is in its melee range, then it can end
this movement at any point. Once the charge target is in the
charging model?s melee range, it must stay in the charging
model?s melee range for the entire charge or the charge fails.
The charging model stops if it contacts a model, an obstacle,
or an obstruction. At the end of the charge movement, the
charging model turns to face its target directly."

Macallan
04-14-2010, 08:44 AM
"The charging model cannot voluntarily stop its movement until its target is in its melee range, then it can end this movement at any point."

"Once the charge target is in the charging model?s melee range, it must stay in the charging model?s melee range for the entire charge or the charge fails."

"At the end of the charge movement, the charging model turns to face its target directly."

Once you have your target in melee range, you stop any time you want, so even if the target is no longer in your melee range. I just checked that underlined part as it might have been interpreted differently. But the answer is the rule as written.

At the end of the move, you turn to face the target.

Ravir
04-14-2010, 08:45 AM
This may have actually been played wrong at my LGS, then. We had been playing that you cannot move to a point where your charge target is no longer in your front arc. The strict reading of the rule is that if you charge past your target, the charge fails, but you CAN charge past them. Either way, when a model ends its charge movement, it turns to face its charge target. If the charge target is not within melee range, that model's activation ends immediately.

Weaselcreature
04-14-2010, 09:19 AM
Thank you Macallan!

So the part "...it must stay in the charging model’s melee range for the entire charge or the charge fails," doesn't mean it fails immediately at that point, and you can still move your full charge distance (turning to face afterwards, of course).

Macallan
04-14-2010, 09:28 AM
If the charge target is not within melee range, that model's activation ends immediately.
Even if the target is in your melee range, the charge fails if it left it during your movement.

Caecus Scius
04-14-2010, 10:26 AM
Macallan... Normally, I am a huge fan. However, the rulings on this subject are still not clear to me. Let me give you an EXACT SCENARIO....

Model A declares a charge at Model B that is 5" ahead of it. Model A turns, and moves in a line that would let him engage model B, however he keeps moving and continues until he is now 9" ahead of where he started. During his movement he moved within melee range, of model b, but continued much further. His charge is now a failure, and he turns to face model B who is behind him, so he makes an almost 180 degree turn.

Are you telling me this is how charging should/can be used?

Aries37
04-14-2010, 10:49 AM
@ caecus: My understanding of Macallan's last two posts is:

Once something has entered your melee range you can choose when to end charge movement. The only thing that stops movement is contacting other models, obstacles or obstructions. At the end of the movement you turn to face. Whether your target is now in melee range or not is moot, the charge has failed because you moved out of melee, activation ends and you cannot attack the target.

Weaselcreature
04-14-2010, 10:57 AM
Are you telling me this is how charging should/can be used?
That's how it seems to be.

Musketeer
04-14-2010, 11:15 AM
Thanks, I think that cleared it up.

Macallan
04-14-2010, 11:37 AM
This is how it can be used, though I don't see any issue with this.

jack frost
04-14-2010, 12:01 PM
so even the changing direction to face your charge target (which doesn't use "immediately" in it's verbiage) happens even though the charge fails immediately as soon as you end your movement outside of melee range?

this was a chance for you guys to curb a "gamey" use of the charge rules...why would a model charge into and then past it's target?

blue loki
04-14-2010, 12:11 PM
this was a chance for you guys to curb a "gamey" use of the charge rules...why would a model charge into and then past it's target?

This is beyond a rules query at this point, but I'll counter with my own question:

If a gamer can see a use for it, why couldn't a Warcaster see the same use and order a model under his command to perform the action?

bouncymischa
04-14-2010, 12:23 PM
so even the changing direction to face your charge target (which doesn't use "immediately" in it's verbiage) happens even though the charge fails immediately as soon as you end your movement outside of melee range?

this was a chance for you guys to curb a "gamey" use of the charge rules...why would a model charge into and then past it's target?

Because aside from Karchev casting Tow and doing it... it's really useless?

Charging past a model really doesn't accomplish anything a run couldn't do instead, and forces you to turn around (typically turning you back to the enemy). I can't really see any situation (other than the one with Karchev) where charging past a model accomplishes more than a simple run would have.

Ger
04-14-2010, 12:28 PM
I'm a bit confused about what's going on here. There does not appear to be a concise explanation of the Question in well question.

If my understanding is correct
-If you intend to succeed in your charge nothing has changed.
-This is only about whether after reaching melee range with a charge target, you can keep going.
-This involves failing the charge and thus ending your activation at the end of movement.
-This involves a specific facing (Toward your charge target).
-You are eligible to take a freestrike by crossing your targets melee range.

This is only a trick to gain extra movement?

::EDIT::
Also to clarify for myself, and possibly others.

If you charge past a target, they enter your melee range during movement, then they leave melee range as you continue movement, and you put them back into melee range when you turn to face them. (Like say an acrobatics model charging directly toward and over a model to wind up behind them.) You have failed your charge because they left your melee range after you put them into it? This means when you end your movement your activation ends. Period. Correct?

DemonCalibre
04-14-2010, 12:32 PM
Yes, it make a very big differance for Karchev.

If I can cast Unearthly Rage, Feat, Then Charge 9 inches, and effective turn 180 degrees backwards to face my charge target, This greatly improves the positioning of Tow.

petetsm
04-14-2010, 12:34 PM
Yep, and it really only applies to Karchev, really. It allows him to get a little more distance out of the "powerslide", along with the ability to cast spells before the charge. The running powerslide still eeks out a little more distance, making this an option, not a complete change to how Special K works.

Der Dexter
04-14-2010, 12:41 PM
Why only Karchev?
spells that are "auras", feat that are auras, or just simply camping and wanting to cast something small. also there are things that have 360Los, say, ebutcher.
i Knowles my eButcher will be charging every time from now on, me thinks.

all this is a bit offtopic, but there could be uses, besides Karchev.

Lord of ????
04-14-2010, 12:45 PM
all this is a bit offtopic, but there could be uses, besides Karchev.
because karchev is the only model that it is beneficial for the rear arc to be facing the enemy.

Ger
04-14-2010, 12:47 PM
Often Beneficial I'd say.

Ashlynn may be able to use this. Flashing blade, flashing blade. Charge past an enemy warcaster. End up out of LOS so no charge for them and too far away to advance and smack. Positioning wise idk how it'd work. But it's what came to mind.

Aries37
04-14-2010, 12:48 PM
Often Beneficial I'd say.

Ashlynn may be able to use this. Flashing blade, flashing blade. Charge past an enemy warcaster. End up out of LOS so no charge for them and too far away to advance and smack. Positioning wise idk how it'd work. But it's what came to mind.

That doesn't work. Once all the motions of the failed charge are completed activation ends immediately. There is no room to cast spells.


Why only Karchev?
spells that are "auras", feat that are auras, or just simply camping and wanting to cast something small. also there are things that have 360Los, say, ebutcher.
i Knowles my eButcher will be charging every time from now on, me thinks.

all this is a bit offtopic, but there could be uses, besides Karchev.
You could always just charge something in front of you. People have been doing that since the dawn of time ;)

Anyhow as people have said, this isn't really a rules discussion anymore.

Many thanks to Macallan for being patient through all this.

petetsm
04-14-2010, 12:48 PM
Why only Karchev?
spells that are "auras", feat that are auras, or just simply camping and wanting to cast something small. also there are things that have 360Los, say, ebutcher.
i Knowles my eButcher will be charging every time from now on, me thinks.

all this is a bit offtopic, but there could be uses, besides Karchev.


How is this different than Butcher charging something that is across the board? It gets the same distance, but you dont end with your back to the enemy. It only gives you slightly more options for *where* you charge, but last time I played eButcher I wanted to get him to the enemy as fast as i could anyway.

Macallan
04-14-2010, 12:58 PM
The only way to get a benefit from this is if you have interests in turning your back to the opponent.

Thread closed.