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hendybadger
04-15-2010, 10:51 AM
I am just getting into Warmachine and headed for the Retribution.

Manticore- Combo Strike- Does this make the attack STR+(POW+POW+STR)?

Hope someone can help

Mod_Redphantasm
04-15-2010, 11:06 AM
Happy to help:

Hydra: no limit, it gains +1 RNG and POW for each point of focus on it.

Manticore: His combo strike is like all others, you sac both initial attacks, and make one attack with a POW = STR + POW + POW (typically 20 or 23 under the STR boost)

Power Booster: Disruption is an status effect. A warjack can be disrupted by such things as Eiryss's Disruport bolt or certain Cygnar spells. A disrupted warjack loses all focus points and cannot be allocated focus.

kropotkin
04-15-2010, 11:09 AM
If it has 5 focus from last turn then yes

It is str + pow+pow

Disrupted is an effect where the target loses all focus and cannot channel spells or be allocated focus (both versions of Eiryss cause this)

Thrasymachos
04-15-2010, 11:10 AM
Rules are one question per post, so keep in mind for future inquiries.

Hydra can have an unlimited amount of Focus on it thanks to its battery, and every Focus point adds +1 to RNG and POW of its ranged attack. So yes, 5 Focus would equal +5 STR and +5 POW on the gun.

Manticore Combo-Strike is STR+(2*POW). I can't remember the actual numbers off the top of my head, but assuming the Manti is STR 11 and the fists are POW 5 that would make Combo-Strike a total P+S of 21 (11+5+5).

Disruption is an effect that is caused by certain attacks, and is specifically mentioned in the text describing the resolution of the attack. For example, a Cygnar Stormsmith's Storm Call causes Disruption (it's on the card).

A warjack suffering Disruption loses its focus points and cannot be allocated focus or channel spells for one round.

Power Booster removes this condition.

hendybadger
04-15-2010, 11:33 AM
I will remember about the questions per post from now on.
The Hydra and Arcanist are all cleared up.
Still confused by the Manticore though.
The wording is - POW of the damage roll is equal to this models STR plus twice the POW of this weapon.
The damage roll is 2d6+STR+POW.
It seems like it says 2d6+STR+(STR+POW+POW)
It would make sense. Both attacks together in one big attack.

Tarrant
04-15-2010, 11:44 AM
For the (*Attack) Combo Strike, damage is 2d6+STR+(2xPOW) or 2d6+STR+POW+POW.

Mod_Redphantasm
04-15-2010, 11:45 AM
I will remember about the questions per post from now on.
The Hydra and Arcanist are all cleared up.
Still confused by the Manticore though.
The wording is - POW of the damage roll is equal to this models STR plus twice the POW of this weapon.
The damage roll is 2d6+STR+POW.
It seems like it says 2d6+STR+(STR+POW+POW)
It would make sense. Both attacks together in one big attack.

It's 2d6+STR+POW+POW.

Combo Strike states:

Combo Strike (��Attack) - Make a melee attack. Instead of making a normal damage roll, the POW of the damage roll is equal to this modelʼs STR plus twice the POW of this weapon.

So the POW of the attack (which is normally POW + STR) is now STR+POW+POW. 2D6 is rolled and added to this number.

hendybadger
04-15-2010, 12:25 PM
I dont mean to awkward but is there any way to get an official answer?
The POW of the damage roll is equal ect, still seems like you add the usual STR+2d6.
Can anyone see and understand what I mean?
It makes sense, honest

steelskin
04-15-2010, 01:28 PM
I dont mean to awkward but is there any way to get an official answer?
The POW of the damage roll is equal ect, still seems like you add the usual STR+2d6.
Can anyone see and understand what I mean?
It makes sense, honest

Normally a melee damage roll is equal to 2d6 + POW + STR (p.21, Hordes Field Test Rules). As Redphantasm quoted combo strike: "Combo Strike (
��Attack) - Make a melee attack. Instead of making a normal damage roll, the POW of the damage roll is equal to this modelʼs STR plus twice the POW of this weapon."

Note the bolded part. Instead of normal damage (2d6+POW+STR), you roll 2d6+(POW+POW)+STR.

hendybadger
04-15-2010, 01:45 PM
That could also be read the other way. The bold section could be making sure you dont just roll the normal way, but do it the special way.
My brain really is torn in two with this one. Half wants to agree but the other half still reads as written just like all the PP rules are written.
In other rules it states when NOT to use a certain roll, bonus ect. This doesnt say instead of using POW+STR, it just says that the POW is different.
Please, someone tell me Im not going insane!

Tarrant
04-15-2010, 01:56 PM
Normal Melee Damage rolls are 2d6+STR+POW. The special damage roll for the Combo Strike is 2d6+STR+POW+POW. The POW is different since you add it twice.

Valander
04-15-2010, 01:56 PM
Search through the forums for previous rulings if you want, but they all will say Combo Strike does

2d6 + (POW+POW+STR).

You likely will not get an "official ruling" on this from an Infernal, either, because one is not needed.

Edit:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=11164&highlight=combo+strike
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=2796&highlight=combo+strike (This one has Macallan confirming, and that's an Infernal saying it works the way described)

hendybadger
04-15-2010, 02:16 PM
I think I may just have to leave this. Just seems like nobody else can see it the way I see it.

That doesnt seem to be an actual confirmation. All he is saying that the people that posted all agree

Tarrant
04-15-2010, 02:24 PM
I can see what you are stating in the sense that the ability states:

"... the POW of the damage roll is equal to this modelʼs STR plus twice the POW of this weapon."

It really should state:

"...the damage roll is equal to this modelʼs STR plus twice the POW of this weapon."

The other way would be way too powerful.

TheUnknownMercenary
04-15-2010, 02:26 PM
Make a melee attack. Instead of making a normal damage roll, the POW of the damage roll is equal to this modelʼs STR plus twice the POW of this weapon.

Note that there are TWO different types of POW listed in the Combo Strike The first is the total POW of the attack damage roll and the second POW (Twice the POW of this weapon) refers to the POW listed on the stat card, which is 5 for the Manticore. As everyone else has stated it is STR (10) + twice the POW of this weapon (2x5=10) for a total of 20.

Valander
04-15-2010, 02:28 PM
I think I may just have to leave this. Just seems like nobody else can see it the way I see it.

That doesnt seem to be an actual confirmation. All he is saying that the people that posted all agree

It's as close as you're going to get, and if everyone in the thread were wrong about how it worked, Macallan would have corrected them.

I'm sorry that you're having a hard time with it, but at some point you are going to have to accept the fact that this is the way that ability works.

Mod_Josh
04-15-2010, 02:45 PM
Exactly. It's always been 2d6+STR+2*POW, since the first book hit. Macallan declined to correct, because no correction was necessary. It's standard operating procedure around here to skip giving the answer if the correct answer's already been given.

hendybadger
04-15-2010, 02:59 PM
I can see what you are stating in the sense that the ability states:

"... the POW of the damage roll is equal to this modelʼs STR plus twice the POW of this weapon."

It really should state:

"...the damage roll is equal to this modelʼs STR plus twice the POW of this weapon."

The other way would be way too powerful.

You have the point exactly! It should say ..... But, It does say.......
I dont think it would be too powerful. The rule says nothing about being able to make additional attacks afterwards like some others do.
Its a ALL or NOTHING hit! If you miss the attack you may have lost the 'Jack by the time you get another turn.

POW vs POW. 2 different versions in one sentence. I dont buy that. Maybe if one said POW and the other said power

EDIT: This is a request for an official ruling from a PP Official!

Macallan
04-15-2010, 03:12 PM
I am just getting into Warmachine...
I am not :p

Combo Strike is here since day one with the Marauder.

Your question is quite legit and was asked since the early days of this game in 2003.

It works as everyone is saying.

hendybadger
04-15-2010, 03:16 PM
Ok. I will try and accept this is the way it works. But its not the way it is written.
So far I have seen a big difference about PP coming from GW.
GW has alot of 'read as intended'
PP seems to be ALL 'read exactly as written'
Which is exactly what I am doing! That, you cannot deny.

Mod_Josh
04-15-2010, 03:17 PM
And just to make sure it's clear: Macallan's one of the Infernals, aka the people who tell you the way the rules work. You've got your official answer.

FearLord
04-15-2010, 03:32 PM
You have the point exactly! It should say ..... But, It does say.......
I dont think it would be too powerful. The rule says nothing about being able to make additional attacks afterwards like some others do.
Its a ALL or NOTHING hit! If you miss the attack you may have lost the 'Jack by the time you get another turn.

POW vs POW. 2 different versions in one sentence. I dont buy that. Maybe if one said POW and the other said power

EDIT: This is a request for an official ruling from a PP Official!

PP don't make rulings - the rulings made by Infernals are official.

Prime Mk2 Page 35 will help you out with your problem:

"POW, Power - The value used when making damage rolls..."

and

"P+S, Power plus Strength - The stat used for a melee weapon when making its damage rolls..." - emphasis mine

Therefore - a damage roll is made with the POW stat UNLESS it is an attack with a melee weapon, in which case it uses P+S.

Now compare to the wording for Combo strike "Instead of making a normal damage roll i.e, instead of a damage roll with P+S, the POW of the damage roll is equal to this model's STR plus twice the POW of this weapon."

emphasis and italics mine. Therefore, you are specifically told NOT to make a normal melee weapon damage roll (P+S + 2d6) and are instead told to make a damage roll (POW + 2d6) and told specifically how to calculate POW (POW = STR + 2xPOW of the weapon).

It is exactly the same rules that work for a power attack - for example headbutt states that you make a damage roll (POW + 2d6) and defines POW for you again (POW = STR).

Read all of this carefully, and it should seem more reasonable...

FerrusManus
04-15-2010, 04:13 PM
I dont think it would be too powerful. The rule says nothing about being able to make additional attacks afterwards like some others do.
Its a ALL or NOTHING hit! If you miss the attack you may have lost the 'Jack by the time you get another turn.

It's a special melee attack, you can always make additional attacks (provided you have focus to buy them) after special melee attacks. You just loose your 2 initial POW 15 (or 18 if you spent 1 focus for 3 STR) attacks and gain 1 POW 20 (23) attack instead.

hendybadger
04-16-2010, 05:36 AM
That does seem to have cleared it up abit. But I can see how VERY misleading this rule can be if you take the rules exactly word for word.



"POW, Power - The value used when making damage rolls..."

and

"P+S, Power plus Strength - The stat used for a melee weapon when making its damage rolls..." - emphasis mine



The next part of that says that the P+S number is there for easy reference.
The damage roll itslef, as stated on P50 is 2d6+POW+STR. Not 2d6+(P+S)
SO the wording of the rules is telling you to change the POW number in a damage roll! Nothing says not to add the STR and nothing says to change the way you work out the roll.
The 'Instead of making a normal damage roll' seems to mean you add in the combo bonus instead of just rolling a normal 2d6+POW+STR

Mod_Redphantasm
04-16-2010, 06:15 AM
That does seem to have cleared it up abit. But I can see how VERY misleading this rule can be if you take the rules exactly word for word.



The next part of that says that the P+S number is there for easy reference.
The damage roll itslef, as stated on P50 is 2d6+POW+STR. Not 2d6+(P+S)
SO the wording of the rules is telling you to change the POW number in a damage roll! Nothing says not to add the STR and nothing says to change the way you work out the roll.
The 'Instead of making a normal damage roll' seems to mean you add in the combo bonus instead of just rolling a normal 2d6+POW+STR

You are:

A) Making this rule far more complicated then it needs to be.

and

B) Trying to make it work the way you want regardless of facts (as stated by players, mod, and Infernals).

All damage rolls have a POW. You roll 2D6 and add this POW to determine your total damage. All damage rolls = POW + 2D6.

* On a normal ranged damage roll, the POW is equal to the POW of the ranged weapon.

* On a normal melee damage roll, the POW is equal to the POW of the melee weapon + the STR of the attacker.

Fine. Now read combo strke:


Combo Strike (��Attack) - Make a melee attack. Instead of making a normal damage roll, the POW of the damage roll is equal to this modelʼs STR plus twice the POW of this weapon.

Right there in big and bold. "Instead of making a normal damage roll". So 2D6 + POW + STR just went right out the window. The ability states you are not making a normal damage roll, so what POW normally equals does not matter. The attack tells you what POW equals

Read the last sentance as a math problem. The POW of the damage roll (the variable POW) is equal to (=) this model's STR (STR) plus (+) twice the POW (2x POW) of this weapon. We get the following:

Normal damage roll: POW + 2D6 where POW = POW + STR

Combo Strike Damage roll: POW + 2D6 where POW = POW+POW+STR

Hopefully that clears this all up.

hendybadger
04-16-2010, 06:20 AM
I will back off then.
Im not trying to make it work how I want. Dont even have that 'Jack yet. Im just stating the way it can be read and they way I read it myself.
I have shown this to another couple of new to WM gamers and they agree with the way I see it.
This rule could be worded ALOT clearer in future though