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Stormpuppy_Infantry
03-19-2014, 12:11 PM
So, Drag said that if the model makes free melee against dragged model then it can make additional attacks during combat action. Then if you Drag and make a melee attack while out of activation, then the model activates are the model can make additional melee attacks? I think that the answer is no, but last sentence is not require to make ranged attack to drag and make following melee attacks in same combat action so I need clarification.

Leonard_Dukes
03-19-2014, 12:19 PM
A model can already make additional attacks during its combat action, unless some effect prevents it from doing so.

One such effect/event would be if a model makes a ranged initial attack - now it cannot make additional melee attacks during its combat action, and cannot make additional ranged attacks unless it has sufficient ROF.

What the Drag rule does is allow for the model to make a ranged attack, resolve that attack, and still make additional attacks.

If you make a Drag attack out of activation, it doesn't do anything for you that you wouldn't already get when your model's activation finally rolls around.

midas
03-19-2014, 12:20 PM
pardon me, but could you please restructure your question?
which model do you refer to, which one is dragged and which one is being draged?

Stormpuppy_Infantry
03-19-2014, 12:31 PM
Bartolo Montador have a Galleon in his battlegroup, then Bart activates first and cast Broadside, Galleon makes a ranged attack with Harpoon Cannon and hit a enemy warjack, drag it and make a following melee attack. Then if Galleon is activates after that, then still it can make additional melee attacks in its combat action because it already make a melee attack followed by Drag before activation?

I think that it is intended only in same combat action though.....

Straight Line
03-19-2014, 12:44 PM
I would say yes.
I find it similar to ancillary attack of a Vassal of Menoth.

Palmer_v1
03-19-2014, 12:45 PM
To clarify, I think he means that when Galleon activates, it chooses to shoot stuff, but misses with the harpoon. Can it still buy melee attacks based on it successfully dragging a model earlier in that turn/round?

Rynth
03-19-2014, 12:46 PM
By my reading the OP's scenario/question is this:

Bart casts Broadsides
A Galleon in Bart's battle group shoots w/ his Harpoon. Hits, does damage, drags the target in and punches it.
Galleon activates, chooses to make initial ranged attacks.
Shoot something with his Harpoon and misses(or fails to do damage).

Can Galleon now buy additional melee attacks?


While additional attacks can only happen during an activation, nothing in Drag's rules state that the "can make additional melee attacks during its combat action" part only applies to the current activation. So it looks like a pre activation Broadsides Drag would allow additional melee attacks during activation.




I think that it is intended only in same combat action though.....
I agree.
However, by the text Drag also doesn't ever expire. Someone could argue that if you make the melee attack from Drag then for the rest of the game Galleon can buy additional melee attacks during his combat activation.

Leonard_Dukes
03-19-2014, 12:49 PM
Bartolo Montador have a Galleon in his battlegroup, then Bart activates first and cast Broadside, Galleon makes a ranged attack with Harpoon Cannon and hit a enemy warjack, drag it and make a following melee attack. Then if Galleon is activates after that, then still it can make additional melee attacks in its combat action because it already make a melee attack followed by Drag before activation?

I think that it is intended only in same combat action though.....

The Galleon would treat its activation and combat action as normal: it would make its initial attacks, if any, and then spend focus to make additional attacks, if any.

The fact that it already made a Drag attack out of activation is irrelevant to its in-activation attacks.

solkan
03-19-2014, 12:54 PM
I agree.
However, by the text Drag also doesn't ever expire. Someone could argue that if you make the melee attack from Drag then for the rest of the game Galleon can buy additional melee attacks during his combat activation.[/FONT]

I don't believe that's a valid argument. If an effect doesn't specify an explicit duration the effect doesn't last forever, it stops as soon as all of the effects have been applied.

That would mean that an out-of-activation permission to do something during your activation has no effect. In order for the permission to continue until the model activated, the effect would need a duration.

Edit: The parallel situation would be the permission to make additional attacks granted by Black Spot as it interacts with Impact Hits--the permission to make the additional attack ends up being useless because it was given at an invalid time.

Rynth
03-19-2014, 12:59 PM
I don't believe that's a valid argument. If an effect doesn't specify an explicit duration the effect doesn't last forever, it stops as soon as all of the effects have been applied.

That would mean that an out-of-activation permission to do something during your activation has no effect.

I don't agree with it either, but Crusher was originally printed without a duration and "needed" one errata'ed im to keep people from thinking it lasted forever.

Leonard_Dukes
03-19-2014, 01:08 PM
To add to Solkan's point, since the rule doesn't say "during its current combat action" or "during its next combat action" one could argue that the Galleon may now make additional attacks after an initial ranged attack during any and all of its subsequent combat actions - an absurd conclusion.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
03-19-2014, 01:13 PM
Yes, as written there is no restriction for in same combat action. But I think that none of us will agreed that it is intended. :( If it is correct, it means Dragging model can make additional melee attacks in its combat action rest of game. It is weird that there is no duration, and we don't play like this so it should be wrong.

Else maybe it can also reads it require drag and followed melee attacks in same combat action to make additional melee attacks, and maybe I just read it wrong.

Rynth
03-19-2014, 01:46 PM
Edit: The parallel situation would be the permission to make additional attacks granted by Black Spot as it interacts with Impact Hits--the permission to make the additional attack ends up being useless because it was given at an invalid time.

Black Spot is not a parallel situation.
Black Spot specifies during activation, Drag has no such restrictions.
Black Spot doesn't just give permission, it gives an attack. That attack is an additional attack and additional attack have rules they must follow. Also, that attack either happens immediately or doesn't happen; it cannot be banked for later, and has no baring on the models remaining initial attacks. Drag just let's a model make additional melee attacks. The model still needs a way to make those attacks and if the model starts making those attacks it loses any remaining initial attacks.

midas
03-19-2014, 02:39 PM
the Broadside attack is an out-of-activation attack, and the harpoon grants one melee attack to a draged target inside close combat range. as usual, out-of-activation attacks do not affect activation attacks, there is no interference afaict.
so: Broadside is cast, Galleon Harpoon hits, damage occurs, push from "drag" is resolved, granted melee attack is resolved (if applicable), other irrelevant stuff happens, Galleon activates and goes about its business as usual.

I assume it is included for two reasons: because there are other models with "Drag" (eg Cryx Reaper, Swamp Troll), so the rule is copied. And also, to not make use of Virtuoso but still allow Galleon to make one specific (harpoon, but not the gunports) ranged attack and melee attacks in one activation.

Wehrkind
03-19-2014, 07:24 PM
Midas, colossals still need Virtuoso to make melee and ranged attacks in the same activation. They do not have weapons platform or the like as battle engines usually do; their only trick is being able to use ranged weapons while engaged, not both melee and ranged. That's why Drag is worded that way.

bahamuth
03-19-2014, 11:46 PM
To add my two cents: I see that there is no timing mentioned, but by logic and common sense i would suggest that the possibility to make additional melee attacks refers to one drag attack, in a way that the ability expires as soon as you make the next "drag"-attack and then following the rules of that latest attack to see if you could make the additional attacks.

Macallan
04-08-2014, 01:27 PM
The last sentence of Drag only applies if Drag is used during your activation.