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DaughterOfFrankenstein
03-19-2014, 12:26 PM
Carpet Bomb (*Attack) - After determining the point of impact, roll deviation for two additional 4" AOEs from that point. A model hit by one of the additional AOEs suffers a POW 7 blast damage roll.


In light of recent revelations about how to resolve Strafe and Auto-Fire attacks, I've been pondering how players have been resolving Carpet Bomb for years... and guys... I think we've been doing it wrong too.

Should we be resolving Carpet Bomb AOEs separately, as has been the case, or do we resolve the damage rolls from Carpet Bomb as single sums, in the same way we now know to resolve effects like auto-fire and Strafe?

Behold, our brave new world, if the Infernals agree:



Durgen Madhammer advances and makes the following damage rolls against Vayl1 after using his feat to augment blast damage and boosting each damage roll from Carpet Bomb:

32-13 = 19 damage
31-13 = 18 damage
31-13 = 18 damage
18+18+19 = 55 total damage

Vayl1 must now transfer 41 damage or more to a warbeast in her battlegroup or explode in a shower of bodyparts. With no warbeasts in her battlegroup able to do so, Vayl1 and a warbeast of her choice collapse into soupy gumbo, and the game is ended.


What say you, Rules Forum?

For review. (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?185945-Strafe-with-Tough-transfers)

Straight Line
03-19-2014, 12:43 PM
...
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Interested, don't know how it will turn out.

Leonard_Dukes
03-19-2014, 01:04 PM
Strafe is handled that way because the rule for Strafe specifies the attacks are simultaneous.

Auto-fire works that way because although the rule does not specify, the tactical tip notes that the attacks are simultaneous.

Do you have the full quote for Carpet Bomb, as well as any tactical tips? I would think that multiple AoE templates from a single attack would be simultaneous, but the lack of that specific wording seems odd.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
03-19-2014, 01:18 PM
Secondary Blast of Judicator is simultaneous though....

midas
03-19-2014, 03:01 PM
secondary blasts always have POW 7, afaict. Reinholt only allows for only once "+1die on roll and discard the lowest". there is no timely restriction on transferring damage to beasts, that i am aware of. the big IF is the state of the secondary attacks, are they simultaneous or not?

also your (maximum) damage seems off, the secondary attack does not gain +1D6.
initial assuming damage focus-boost from the warcaster: 14+3D6 ~ 24,5; max 32 raw damage, no feat bonus applicable ; ~11,5 applied damage
each secondary: 7+4D6 ~ 21; max 35 raw damage ; ~8 applied damage
you can add +2 on average for Reinholt to the first damage roll, but no more.

Edit: as pointed out further down, the explosions ARE simultaneous, and simultaneous attacks on a warlock generate one big pile of damage that is transfered as a whole, thus using up only 1 fury.
and the secondyry damage rolls are focus-boostable

lastspartacus
03-19-2014, 03:05 PM
It stands to mention the small advantage of being able to use one fury to transfer a few nickle and dime attacks.

Leonard_Dukes
03-19-2014, 04:08 PM
even if the attacks are simultaneous, the damage still comes in chunks and the transfer occurs "immediately" (P77 primal).
consequently, Vayl would have to spend 1 fury per chunk, totaling to 3 fury if she wanted to transfer all damage.



Incorrect. Damage from simultaneous attacks - such as Strafe or Auto-Fire - is dealt to the warlock in one "chunk", even though generated by several damage rolls, and triggers only one opportunity to transfer damage. Likewise, a model with Tough that is hit by multiple simultaneous attacks - that are each individually enough to disable it - only makes one Tough roll.

The question at hand is whether the multiple AoE templates generated by Carpet Bomb are considered to be simultaneous or sequential attacks.

There's no question that all models under one of the AoE templates suffer damage simultaneously, but whether one model that is hit by two or three AoE templates suffers simultaneous damage from each, or sequential damage from each, is the matter under debate.

Having the "Forces of" book in front of me, I see that the rule for Carpet Bomb does not state that they are simultaneous, nor is there a Tactical Tip indicating as much. I'm unaware of any underlying rule that would make them simultaneous by default.

The closest thing I can find that would address this at its root is:


Attacks that generate multiple attack and/or damage rolls do so simultaneously.

Using this, one would be led to believe that since Carpet Bomb itself is a single attack, any attack/damage rolls generated by it would be simultaneous, therefore multiple AoE templates damaging a single model would likewise do so simultaneously, just as Strafe and Auto-Fire.

FluffyZealot
03-19-2014, 04:28 PM
I believe that Durgen just got scarier...

vintersbastard
03-19-2014, 04:33 PM
In light of recent revelations about how to resolve Strafe and Auto-Fire attacks, I've been pondering how players have been resolving Carpet Bomb for years... and guys... I think we've been doing it wrong too.(...)
For review. (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?185945-Strafe-with-Tough-transfers)
What recent revelations? If you follow that discussion back to its origins, you'll notice that this stance on simultaneous damage goes back to at least September 2011.
Or did you only now realize that Carpet Bomb deals simultaneous damage?



also your (maximum) damage seems off, the secondary attack does not gain +1D6. (...) boostable by focus since the wording is "suffers" and not "is hit by", indicating the the source is not the caster; .
You might want to reread that card:
Carpet Bomb (★Attack) - After determining the point of impact, roll deviation for two additional 4 ̋ AOEs from that point. A model hit by one of the additional AOEs suffers a POW 7 blast damage roll.
That's the exact same wording the rules use for normal AOE attacks, so they certainly are boostable (it just costs Durgen additional focus to do so).

DaughterOfFrankenstein
03-19-2014, 04:38 PM
What recent revelations? If you follow that discussion back to its origins, you'll notice that this stance on simultaneous damage goes back to at least September 2011.
Or did you only now realize that Carpet Bomb deals simultaneous damage?
Playing this correctly only reached our backwater recently.

vintersbastard
03-19-2014, 04:54 PM
Playing this correctly only reached our backwater recently.

Ah, ok, that explains it. You had me worried for a second that I missed some important ruling. :)

DaughterOfFrankenstein
03-21-2014, 12:47 PM
So what is the verdict? It seems pretty clear that single sum damage resolution is the way Carpet Bomb should go RAW., but further discussion/clarification would be nice.

Hilarius
03-25-2014, 02:31 AM
Not sure if 4 days counts as a Necro, but I would also like a clarification here, though with the arguments so far, it seems to be simultaneous. This interaction is powerful enough that it can be hard to convince others without quoting a locked or Infernal answered thread.

vintersbastard
03-25-2014, 03:12 AM
Not sure if 4 days counts as a Necro, but I would also like a clarification here, though with the arguments so far, it seems to be simultaneous. This interaction is powerful enough that it can be hard to convince others without quoting a locked or Infernal answered thread.

Ask them for any rules-based reason they can think of why the damage rolls would not be simultaneous - after all, every other kind of attack that causes multiple damage rolls is.

Sebi
03-25-2014, 03:33 AM
Carpet Bomb is a *Attack like *Scattershot is a *Attack - both are single attacks
You first try to hit - then you see what additional hits are created with additional AOEs then your roll for damage
all is one attack
all happens simultaniously
one transfer
one toughcheck

Mod_Redphantasm
03-25-2014, 05:51 AM
The attacks are simultaneous, though the damage rolls used in the example are some really hot dice.