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View Full Version : Optional versus mandatory use of a model Advantage



Leonard_Dukes
04-30-2014, 09:53 AM
A while back, there was a thread asking whether a model with Pathfinder must take advantage of that ability, or if it could optionally choose not to ignore rough terrain, and choose not to be able to charge/trample over linear obstacles.

The Infernal response was to reaffirm a rules quote:


Advantages are always in effect and apply every time a game situation warrants their use.

The result was that a model with Pathfinder must advance through rough terrain without penalty and is always able to charge/trample across linear obstacles.

All this came up in another recent discussion in which a player asked if a model being pushed automatically moves through an Incorporeal model or if there is some choice involved by one player or another.

In that discussion, I came upon a ruling (by the same Infernal as above) regarding an Incorporeal model being dragged that stated:


Incorporeal models can move through other models. It does not say it has to move through them. It is the incorporeal model player's choice.

Now, this ruling addresses an Incorporeal model moving through a non-Incorporeal model, not the other way around, but that's perfect for this thread.

If a model with Pathfinder must always use the benefit of that Advantage, despite the potentially misleading use of the word "can", what is different about Incorporeal that allows an affected model to choose whether or not to apply the Advantage?

I use these two as an example, but if there's any discussion/ruling that applies in general, I'm all for it.

Vorath
04-30-2014, 09:59 AM
I would say the word "can" in this case is an either/or scenario.
If the model with incorporel is corporeal at the time of the pull, it cannot go through another model.
If the model with incorporeal is incorporeal at the time of the pull (push, forced movement of whatever type) then it Must go through if it has movement enough to do so as the ability is then "active" and would meet with the criteria indicated in your post referencing pathfinder being always on and the infernal post on that point.

so based on the on/off status of the effect, the model must/cannot pass through another model, therefore it *can* pass through when forced to do so and *cannot* when forced while corporeal.

Mod_Neldar
04-30-2014, 10:03 AM
I would say the word "can" in this case is an either/or scenario.
If the model with incorporel is corporeal at the time of the pull, it cannot go through another model.
If the model with incorporeal is incorporeal at the time of the pull (push, forced movement of whatever type) then it Must go through if it has movement enough to do so as the ability is then "active" and would meet with the criteria indicated in your post referencing pathfinder being always on and the infernal post on that point.

so based on the on/off status of the effect, the model must/cannot pass through another model, therefore it *can* pass through when forced to do so and *cannot* when forced while corporeal.

This is all wrong given the wording of Incorporeal.

If an Incorporeal model makes a ranged or melee attack it loses Incorporeal.

So nothing in the Incorporeal rules apply to the model until it regains the advantage.

Leonard_Dukes
04-30-2014, 10:06 AM
I would say the word "can" in this case is an either/or scenario.
If the model with incorporel is corporeal at the time of the pull, it cannot go through another model.
If the model with incorporeal is incorporeal at the time of the pull (push, forced movement of whatever type) then it Must go through if it has movement enough to do so as the ability is then "active" and would meet with the criteria indicated in your post referencing pathfinder being always on and the infernal post on that point.

so based on the on/off status of the effect, the model must/cannot pass through another model, therefore it *can* pass through when forced to do so and *cannot* when forced while corporeal.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that an Infernal has already said that an Incorporeal model being pushed can choose not to be pushed through another model (since that's the point of this thread)...

...the only problem I have with that answer is that the Incorporeal advantage already states that, under certain conditions, the model loses Incorporeal for a round.

So in the case of an Incorporeal model that has just made an attack and, therefore, loses Incorporeal for a round, there is technically no "can" to be read anymore, thus making it redundant if its only purpose is to act as a "while this model is Incorporeal" condition.

Vorath
04-30-2014, 10:36 AM
This is all wrong given the wording of Incorporeal.

If an Incorporeal model makes a ranged or melee attack it loses Incorporeal.

So nothing in the Incorporeal rules apply to the model until it regains the advantage.

Wow. so you didn't actually understand what i said.
I said exactly that. IF the model is corporeal... that inhrenetly implies that it has not regained the ability.
that is the ENTIRE premise behind my post, that the word *can* in the ability relies upon the duality of corporeal/incorporeal states of being.
IF a model has become corporeal it is treated as such.
IF a model has NOT become corporeal, it is treated as such.
Nothing is forcing a change in state unless directly noted, so a model with the incorporeal ability will exist in one state or the other, and you handle the resoltion of the ability based on the state it is in.

IF it is incorporeal and is pushed directly, and that line goes through another models base, And it has enough movement as a result of the push to go THROUGH the model, then it will not be impeded by the corporeal model who is standing there as per the incorporeal rules.

imbob
04-30-2014, 10:36 AM
Seems conflicting to me. I eagerly await a pp response.

Mod_Neldar
04-30-2014, 11:20 AM
Wow. so you didn't actually understand what i said.
I said exactly that. IF the model is corporeal... that inhrenetly implies that it has not regained the ability.
that is the ENTIRE premise behind my post, that the word *can* in the ability relies upon the duality of corporeal/incorporeal states of being.
IF a model has become corporeal it is treated as such.
IF a model has NOT become corporeal, it is treated as such.
Nothing is forcing a change in state unless directly noted, so a model with the incorporeal ability will exist in one state or the other, and you handle the resoltion of the ability based on the state it is in.

IF it is incorporeal and is pushed directly, and that line goes through another models base, And it has enough movement as a result of the push to go THROUGH the model, then it will not be impeded by the corporeal model who is standing there as per the incorporeal rules.

The presence of the word "can" implies that the abilities associated with it are optional for a model that is currently Incorporeal. If the model is not Incorporeal then we ignore everything about that advantage. The word "can" has no application to this duality.

Put another way, the premise as presented is flawed. No one is asking about models that do not have or have lost the Incorporeal advantage. That scenario is clear. The question is about the abilities associated with "can" being optional for a model that is currently Incorporeal.

Is the ability for a model that is currently Incorporeal to be moved through another model always on (push, advances, etc.)?

Is the ability to move through a model that is currently Incorporeal controlled by a player or always on? Which player?

solkan
04-30-2014, 11:23 AM
For the record, the two threads in question:

Mandatory pathfinder:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?60144-Is-Pathfinder-obligatory

Dragging an Incorporeal model:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?167262-Dragging-an-incorporeal-model

And the thread about pushing:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?198980-Push-Incorporeal
which appears to have triggered this thread.

Leonard_Dukes
05-05-2014, 02:53 PM
For the record, and future searches, a recent Infernal (re)ruling has clarified the treatment of Incorporeal:


Incorporeal models move through other models during any movement; not just during advances.

Dragged Incorporeal models do move through other models. The 'can move' is a permission, not an option.

Since there is no longer any inconsistency in how "can" is applied for Incorporeal versus Pathfinder (and other such 'always on' abilities/advantages), my original question is answered. Feel free to lock.