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maddermax
05-11-2014, 11:41 AM
Little question that popped up to tonight. I declared a charge with my warcaster, but before moving or measuring declared I was casting a spell - obviously it would have been easier the other way around but I forgot before the declaration. Now, the question is, does your movement start immediately once you've declared a charge, or can I cast a spell?

The rules on charging say "declare a charge target before moving", which I take to mean that it happens before movement begins (thusly leaving a gap where a spell could be cast), but I may well be mistaken.

At any rate, my opponent let it slide anyway (nice bloke, and a casual game :)) but I'd like to know for future reference.

HellecticMojo
05-11-2014, 12:14 PM
You can do anything you want long as you don't interrupt.

so you can declare charge, do spells before moving, move, cast more spells if desired and make an attack.

solkan
05-11-2014, 12:14 PM
As far as I can tell, as soon as you declare the charge target, you're resolving the movement portion of the charge. It would make a difference if you could cast spells between the declaration of the charge target and the movement because there are spells that move models around.

On the other hand, the charge is still divided into two parts, the movement and the combat action. So casting a spell before the movement would be okay, but it would have to occur before the target declaration, whether or not that happened before in strict chronological sense or before in the "Oops, I meant to declare this before that, is that okay?" sense. :)

ScottMcd
05-11-2014, 08:38 PM
This is from war room so it could be wrong:

Declare a charge and its target before moving the model. ... After declaring a charge the charging model turns to face...

It seems to me that the movement doesn't start until after the declaration and is not part of the movement phase. Since the rules do not say "immediately after declaring a charge target..." I see nothing to indicate you can't perform an at any time ability between the declaration and the movement (turning to face.)

Also, it would be easy to just say I'm going to charge that model...after I cast a spell.

maddermax
05-11-2014, 10:08 PM
So two for being able to cast, one against. Then again, Solkan is usually pretty on the ball...

At any rate, does anyone know of any official answer from an infernal or even a Judge on the issue? My google-fu fails me, as searching "declare a charge and then cast spells" or any variants just finds threads about casting spells after charging...

vintersbastard
05-12-2014, 12:37 AM
Going strictly by the rules, I agree with solkan - declaring a target is part of the charge movement (hence why troopers don't declare all charge targets before the first one moves, but do it one at a time).

On the other hand, there really isn't any harm done by allowing spell casting at this point, since you haven't changed any game state or gained any additional information, but just made a declaration of intent. So my guess would be your opponent would have to be a ridiculous stickler to the rules to enforce this.

maddermax
05-12-2014, 01:09 AM
Going strictly by the rules, I agree with solkan - declaring a target is part of the charge movement (hence why troopers don't declare all charge targets before the first one moves, but do it one at a time).

On the other hand, there really isn't any harm done by allowing spell casting at this point, since you haven't changed any game state or gained any additional information, but just made a declaration of intent. So my guess would be your opponent would have to be a ridiculous stickler to the rules to enforce this.

I'm more just interested in case I do go to a tournament at some point and face a stickler - I'm not tournament minded at the best of times, and my brain often gets to the declaring of one thing before remembering to do another :)

Now, as for your example (troopers not having to declare charges separately), I'm not sure that's a good counter-example - while troopers all move before they start actions, their moves are still individually worked out, so you could still have seperate "charge declaration" and "movement" for each trooper anyway, without the need to declare all charges first.

I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, just that the example of a unit doesn't show it :)

Straight Line
05-12-2014, 01:09 AM
I think 100% by the rules, it should not be allowed.
However, 99,99% of the times, you can just say "Caster charges... No wait, he first casts xyz and then he charges."

vintersbastard
05-12-2014, 01:34 AM
Now, as for your example (troopers not having to declare charges separately), I'm not sure that's a good counter-example - while troopers all move before they start actions, their moves are still individually worked out, so you could still have seperate "charge declaration" and "movement" for each trooper anyway, without the need to declare all charges first.

I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, just that the example of a unit doesn't show it :)Troopers only iterate through steps 6 and 7 of the activation chart (i.e. "normal movement" & "end of movement effects"), but not step 5 ("before movement"), cf. p. 244 of Prime. I'm pretty confident about my example. :)

solkan
05-12-2014, 10:03 AM
Now, as for your example (troopers not having to declare charges separately), I'm not sure that's a good counter-example - while troopers all move before they start actions, their moves are still individually worked out, so you could still have seperate "charge declaration" and "movement" for each trooper anyway, without the need to declare all charges first.


Don't get the charge order conflated with the individual model's choice to charge. The charge order is received. Then, later, each trooper in a unit that receives a "charge" order individually chooses to charge or run when it resolves its movement. The discussions on that topic are what should remove any doubt that the declaration of the charge target for that model starts the charge movement.

The actual charge performance for every model in the game (trooper or not) is divided into a movement portion and a combat action portion. That leaves you with your any time abilities before the movement (and thus before the target declaration), after the charge movement, before the charge attack, and after the charge attack. (Assuming that the charge didn't fail and cause the activation to end prematurely.)

Etologi
05-12-2014, 10:18 AM
Can't you just say: I'm gonna activate my caster, he is gonna charge that dude... (oops) but before that, he's gonna cast xxx.

Isn't that perfectly fine? Ain't it all just a declaration of intent until you commit to the action?

Grey Templar
05-12-2014, 11:01 AM
I am under the impression the order is as follows.

1) Declare model will charge.

2) Choose target of charge and complete movement. Determine if charge was successful or not.

3) Make charge attack if successful.

You can thus use "at any time" abilities between 1 and 2 or between 2 and 3.


So you could say,

My warcaster is going to charge, he will cast XYZ, he is targeting X model with his charge *insert movement here.

You could not go,

My warcaster charges your Warjack, but first I'll cast XYZ.


From a pure effect orientated position, the only way the 2 states could be distinguished is if there was some effect that happened when a model targeted another with a charge. In which case it would matter which order things got triggered.

Briard
05-12-2014, 06:01 PM
Oooookay. I need some clarification...

I had always thought the entire charge action was independent, a one-go. As in [cast spell] [charge] [extra attacks] kind of thing. To charge is to declare, move, then attack if charge successful. As in [do stuff] [declare charge, move, attack if able] [do other stuff] as chunks, and you couldn't interrupt the action chunk unless the charge caused something to trigger...

But now I hear you can interrupt your charge at any step to cast a spell? Is that so?

TheUnknownMercenary
05-12-2014, 06:12 PM
Declaring something than choosing not to do it, is more of a sportsmanship issue. By the rules, you have declared something.

As far as anytime abilities during a charge, a model can use anytime abilities BEFORE you declare your model is charging, after the charge movement, before making the charge attack, between attacks and after attacks.

maddermax
05-12-2014, 06:51 PM
Declaring something than choosing not to do it, is more of a sportsmanship issue. By the rules, you have declared something.

As far as anytime abilities during a charge, a model can use anytime abilities BEFORE you declare your model is charging, after the charge movement, before making the charge attack, between attacks and after attacks.

Ah, so officially the Charge declaration is "resolving a movement", not before movement (just "before moving", which is semantically different), and once declared spells can't be cast because it's during a move. No worries, I'll just have to be more careful :)