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View Full Version : Old Witch and her feat vs. Units



arquistar
07-11-2014, 01:53 PM
I've got a scenario that's come up a couple times already and haven't really found a good way to deal with it.

Old Witch gets fairly close to a unit and pops her feat

While in the Old Witch's control area, enemy models cannot run, charge, or make special attacks. Enemy models that advance and end their movement in the Old Witch's control area immediately suffer an unboostable pow 14 damage roll.
without measuring control, she knows she'll catch a lot of them in her control bubble but maybe not all. During the opponent's turn, they activate that unit and give a charge order. The models that are clearly in her control range get charges, because

Warmachine Prime MKII, p. 47
Some effects require a model to charge. A model required to charge must charge a model to which it can draw line of sight. If there are no models in its line of sight, or if it cannot charge, the model activates but must forfeit its movement and action.
The models that are on the borderline of in or out of her control area run as a quick reference of whether or not they're in her control because

Warmachine Prime MKII, p.75
For control area effects against opposing models, you do not have to measure the control area until after the enemy model commits to its movement or action.
and

Warmachine Prime MKII, p.46
If a model cannot run due to some effect and is required to run, instead of running it makes a full advance, then its activation immediately ends.

Can troopers in the Old Witch's feat that get the charge order and elect to run forfeit their movement? Or do they have to use their full advance to try to get out of her control area in order to avoid the pow 14?

solkan
07-11-2014, 02:02 PM
Can troopers in the Old Witch's feat that get the charge order and elect to run forfeit their movement? Or do they have to use their full advance to try to get out of her control area in order to avoid the pow 14?

No model gets to retroactively change its declaration. That's what "... until after the enemy model commits to its movement or action." means.

So you select a model, indicate whether it's going to charge (and declare its charge target) or that it will run. Then you measure as necessary to see whether it's in the control area.

Models that receive a charge order no longer have the option to forfeit their movement to aim because they must charge or run. But, more importantly, the charge order equates to a choice of "must run" or "must charge" made individually for each model, completely independent of whether the model in question has effects that prevent it from running or charging. The consequences of choosing "must run" or "must charge" when some other effect prevents that action are spelled out in the charge and run rules.

If the controlling player chooses "must charge" out of "must run or charge" and the measurement indicates that the model is in the control area, the result will be that the model forfeits its movement and action, and thus does not trigger the feat effect.

Edit for completeness: If the controlling player chooses "must run", then it would be similar. Select the model, indicate that it will be running, then measure to see if it's in the control area and thus whether that run becomes a full advance instead. Then measure at the end to see if it takes the damage for ending in the control area.

I'm not sure whether the running model would have to declare its whole run advance and then only advance the distance possible for a full advance along that declared path. I think "choosing run" is the point where it commits, but ...

arquistar
07-13-2014, 09:11 AM
Quick followup question, how does this apply to solos or warjacks? If they think they're out of control and declare a charge in, after resolving that they are in the control area does their activation end? Or because they cannot charge and its not something they must do they get to choose to do something else?

vintersbastard
07-13-2014, 10:08 AM
Quick followup question, how does this apply to solos or warjacks? If they think they're out of control and declare a charge in, after resolving that they are in the control area does their activation end? Or because they cannot charge and its not something they must do they get to choose to do something else?

They cannot make that declaration, i.e. you have to determine whether they're in her control area before they even try.

The only reason this works differently for troopers is the fact that they need to receive the appropriate order beforehand, and are then forced to comply with said order.

kinginyellow
07-13-2014, 12:20 PM
They cannot make that declaration, i.e. you have to determine whether they're in her control area before they even try.

The only reason this works differently for troopers is the fact that they need to receive the appropriate order beforehand, and are then forced to comply with said order.

I don't believe this is correct. Declaring a charge with a Jack/beast and not being able to charge is not an illegal game state. The rules for charging and you can't charge means that model just ends their activation immediately without moving.

vintersbastard
07-13-2014, 03:46 PM
I don't believe this is correct. Declaring a charge with a Jack/beast and not being able to charge is not an illegal game state. The rules for charging and you can't charge means that model just ends their activation immediately without moving.
No such rule exists.
The case you're thinking of is that a model which is required to charge, but cannot for some reason, has to forfeit both movement and action - that's exactly the case that applies to troopers.
Jacks, on the other hand, are not required to charge when a focus is spend - they just need to do the latter in order to do the former, and if they cannot charge, they cannot spend a focus to charge.

solkan
07-14-2014, 12:08 AM
Yep, it's a technicality that exists for troopers in units because of the charge order mechanic specifying the mandatory clause:

A trooper must receive a charge order to charge during its normal movement. A trooper that receives a charge order must either run or charge during its normal movement.
vs.

A warjack must spend 1 focus point to charge during its normal movement.
which doesn't have a mandatory clause. The model doesn't spend focus to do something it can't do. Similar case with the warbeast.

A warbeast must be forced to charge during its normal movement.
where the forcing rules specify that you

When a warbeast is forced, specify the desired effect and place 1 fury point on it.
so if the model can't charge, you can't force it to charge.

Examples like the Paingiver Beast Handlers Enrage rule that say

If the warbeast is in range, it gains +2 STR and must charge or mae a slam or trample power attack without being forced during its next activation.
are the minority. Effects like Karchev the Terrible's Total War say "can charge or make power attacks without spending focus."

So you might end up with a warbeast or warjack in the analogous situation as the trooper receiving the charge order, but it's going to be relatively uncommon.

kinginyellow
07-14-2014, 12:11 PM
Our lgs had been playing it wrong for a while then, thanks guys and sorry for interrupt.