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Larnu
09-28-2014, 01:18 PM
Hi everyone,

I have a friend who has recently started playing Hordes, who has a query regarding the correct ruling for Combo Strike which I, and some friends, have been unable to prove wrong.

I'd like to first start by quoting the rules from the rule book, rather than explaining his theory, as it'll make more sense afterwards. What I'm looking for is for someone to prove him wrong.

Combo Strike Rule (Any model with Combo strike, i.e. Argus P 138 Primal):
BITE:
Make a melee attack. Instead of making a normal damage roll, the POW of the damage roll is equal to this model's STR plus twice the POW of this weapon.

Damage Rolls (P65 Primal)
In the case of melee attacks, rolls 2d6 and add the POW + Strength (STR), or P&S, of the attack. (boosted attacks sentence). Special rules for certain circumstances might modify the damage roll as well.

Damage roll = 2d6 +POW (+STR if melee)

Melee Weapons (P50 Primal)
Melee Weapons include such implements as spears... . Some models, such as warbeasts, have attack options allowing them to make attacks without their weapons (power attacks, for example)

Melee Damage roll = 2d6 + POW + STR

Combat Actions paragraph 4 (P49 Primal)
Special Actions listed as a rule of a melee weapon are melee special attacks. Special attacked listed as a rule of a ranged weapon are ranged special attacks. A special attack made with a ranged weapon counts towards ROF of the weapon. Special attacks listed as a rule of the model itself are neither melee attacks nor ranged attacks.


For the purposes of this post, I'm going to use a model with STR 8, and a weapon of POW 4. So this means that a normal melee attack would result in:
Damage 2d6 + POW + STR = 2d6 + 4 +8 = 2d6+12

So, my friends and I are under unanimous understanding that Combo Strike basically creates the following:
Damage = 2d6 + (2 * POW) + 8 = 2d6 + (2*4) + 8 = 2d6 + 8 + 8 = 2d6 + 16.

Our friend disagrees with this, using the wording of the above rules. We've searched, a fair amount, and haven't been able to disprove him, so if someone could and explain why, it would be great.

The wording of Combo Strike is "the POW of the damage roll is equal to this model's STR plus twice the POW of this weapon" The key part being "the POW of the damage roll". This means that he is therefore saying that the formula becomes (WPOW = Weapon Power):
Damage = 2d6 + POW + STR = 2d6 + (2 * WPOW + STR) + STR = 2d6 + (2* 4 + 8) + 8 = 2d6 + 16 + 8 = 2d6 + 24

The reason being that the wording says replace the POW of the damage roll, NOT the Power and strength. As it's a melee damage attack, you're therefore adding the strength onto the end (again), and therefore completely doubling the attack power. We've been able to find nothing that doesn't state that you don't add the Strength of a model to a special weapon attack, as the rules state that the formula is true for a melee attack (it's not a Power attack, which have different rules), so as it stands, he's correct.

So my question is, is he really right, and if not, prove it. :)

Thanks!

Larnu~

Mod_Neldar
09-28-2014, 01:49 PM
Combo Strike says instead of making a regular damage roll do something else.

The something else is STR+POW+POW+2d6.

That's all you need.

Larnu
09-28-2014, 01:54 PM
Where do the rules say the the above maths is a "normal" damage roll. Define a "normal" damage roll. I need to prove him, so simply saying "this is right" isn't enough.

Lanz
09-28-2014, 01:59 PM
Where do the rules say the the above maths is a "normal" damage roll. Define a "normal" damage roll.

Your post doesn't address anything I've stated, sorry.

A normal damage roll is the damage roll presented in the rules. Dice + pow (+ str if melee). Combo strike says you use a different formula, which also adds the pow of the second attack.

The combo strike rule replaces the normal formula. It doesn't add to it.

Mod_Neldar
09-28-2014, 02:00 PM
Combo Strike is a melee special attack. Melee attacks normally do the damage roll you defined above.

Combo Strike overrides that by saying "instead..."

It really is that simple. You have it right. Your friend has it wrong.

Bittersashes
09-28-2014, 02:02 PM
The rules say to make a damage roll with a defined POW instead of the normal roll for a melee attack. Hence, it's 2d6 + STR + (2 x Weapon POW), because that is what the Combo Strike rule tells you to roll.

If it worked the way your friend interprets the rules, the POW of the weapon would become POWx2 + STR but the damage roll mechanism would remain unmodified.

Your friend is incorrect.

Larnu
09-28-2014, 02:14 PM
Thanks everyone so far, and I apologise if I sound pedantic (I'm just trying to pre-empt his responses, as he is).

I'm fine with replacing the formula, so we now get 2*WPOW + STR, but then, if we're replacing the formula, then should the 2D6 go as well. So then then simply get a value of 12, using the values above, with no dice rolling?

Combo strike, in it's wording, states replace the value of POW in the formula, not replace the whole formula, so therefore the 2D6, and (+ str if in melee) is retained (bearing in mide that POW = 2 X POW + STR).

juckto
09-28-2014, 02:16 PM
This is like a trip down memory lane.

Damage roll = 2d6 + 2x POW
Infernal ruling:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?74391-Slayer-s-combo-strike-damage-roll-should-be-32-2d6&highlight=combo

"But that's not what the rule says! Will the wording be changed?"
No:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?74475-Will-combo-strike-be-errata-ed&highlight=combo

Mod_Neldar
09-28-2014, 02:19 PM
Thanks everyone so far, and I apologise if I sound pedantic (I'm just trying to pre-empt his responses, as he is).

I'm fine with replacing the formula, so we now get 2*WPOW + STR, but then, if we're replacing the formula, then should the 2D6 go as well. So then then simply get a value of 12, using the values above, with no dice rolling?

Combo strike, in it's wording, states replace the value of POW in the formula, not replace the whole formula, so therefore the 2D6, and (+ str if in melee) is retained (bearing in mide that POW = 2 X POW + STR).

You are correct that there is some ambiguity in the wording of the rule.

Juckto has the Infernal ruling to show that your interpretation is correct.

Larnu
09-28-2014, 02:21 PM
Thanks Juckto, that's basically sums it up. In simple terms, and paraphrasing, basically:
"The wording is wrong. It's not going to be changed. You know how it's meant to work. If you don't like it, PAGE 5." :)