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Po the Barbarian
01-10-2015, 07:44 PM
Am I correct to think that the Sentry Stone's ability Devour Magic can remove one fury from any number of models in it's command? I wasn't sure, because the sentry stone can only have up to five fury on it, but it seems like the fury limit on what the sentry stone can hold isn't worded to put an upper limit on the ability to remove one fury from each model within command. That is, if you have six models with one or more fury within 6 inches of the sentry stone when it uses devour magic, each of those six models would lose a fury and the sentry stone would end up with five fury on it.

Thanks for your assistance!

Leonard_Dukes
01-10-2015, 08:04 PM
Once per turn at any time during its unit's activation, this model can use Devour Magic. When it does, you can remove up to 1 focus or fury point from each enemy model in its command range. For each focus or fury point removed, place 1 fury point on this model. [...] This model can have up to 5 fury points at a time.

It sounds to me like the "place 1 fury on this model for each focus/fury removed from an enemy model" part is non-optional, whereas the "can remove up to 1 focus/fury from each enemy model" is optional. Since there is no allowance for what to do with excess fury points that should be placed on the Sentry Stone (as opposed to Reaving, for example, which tells you to discard any excess fury beyond the warlock's limit), it seems as if you are not able to remove focus/fury from an enemy model if doing so would cause the Sentry Stone to have more than its maximum allotment of fury.

solkan
01-11-2015, 12:51 AM
The Tactical Tip for Devour Magic:

As long as this model has 5 fury, it cannot remove focus or fury points from models.

If you tried to remove six points from some set of models, you'd pick up the points and add the fury one at a time, and be unable to pick up that sixth point. In other words, you cannot remove points that you can't do the corresponding addition of fury for.

Po the Barbarian
01-11-2015, 07:54 AM
Goddamn tactical tips get me every time - thanks for helping me out where war room fails guys!

Wehrkind
01-11-2015, 11:02 AM
I am worried that I disagree with Solkan, as it probably means I am wrong, but isn't the removing a separate act from placing? They are separated by a period, so it seems to me that it should be read as such:

1: Remove one fury from every enemy within 6".
2: For each fury removed, add one to the stone, up to 5.

So it seems that all the fury gets removed and put aside, then different fury is added, not "1 fury removed from enemy and placed on stone." The tactical tip seems to say that you can't even use the ability if you have 5 fury already on you, not that it limits how many can be removed.

vintersbastard
01-11-2015, 11:34 AM
I am worried that I disagree with Solkan, as it probably means I am wrong, but isn't the removing a separate act from placing? They are separated by a period, so it seems to me that it should be read as such:

1: Remove one fury from every enemy within 6".
2: For each fury removed, add one to the stone, up to 5.

So it seems that all the fury gets removed and put aside, then different fury is added, not "1 fury removed from enemy and placed on stone." The tactical tip seems to say that you can't even use the ability if you have 5 fury already on you, not that it limits how many can be removed.If the cap applies at all to the focus/fury removal, then it applies as soon as the limit is reached. It cannot remove focus/fury that would bring it beyond that bound.

Wehrkind
01-11-2015, 04:28 PM
But that is what I am getting at. Removed fury isn't transferred to the stone directly. Rather you remove 1 fury from every enemy model, then afterwards add fury to your stone, one per fury removed, up to a limit of 5. The period makes me think they should not be linked in execution, only in assigning how much can be given to the stone.
To give a similar example, if an ability said "Deal one damage to every model within CMD range. Gain one HP for each point of damage dealt in this way, up to the model's max hit points." it would be reasonable to expect that the damage would happen whether the model had 1 hp missing or 10.

I am guessing that the limit applies answer is actually correct, but I don't think it should be based on the wording.

vintersbastard
01-11-2015, 05:04 PM
But that is what I am getting at. Removed fury isn't transferred to the stone directly. Rather you remove 1 fury from every enemy model, then afterwards add fury to your stone, one per fury removed, up to a limit of 5. The period makes me think they should not be linked in execution, only in assigning how much can be given to the stone.
(...)
I am guessing that the limit applies answer is actually correct, but I don't think it should be based on the wording.The Tactical Tip disagrees with your supposition, and Tactical Tips have been considered to be rules in the past.

Wehrkind
01-11-2015, 05:30 PM
Tactical tip just says you can't use it if you already have 5 fury, not that you can only get 1 if you have 4. Assuming Solkan quoted correctly, which I am sure he did.

vintersbastard
01-11-2015, 06:08 PM
Tactical tip just says you can't use it if you already have 5 fury, not that you can only get 1 if you have 4. Assuming Solkan quoted correctly, which I am sure he did.

By your reasoning, the amoung of fury on the Stone has no impact on its ability to remove focus/fury from other models; the Tactical Tip clearly contradicts this. Ergo, your interpretation is incorrect.

solkan
01-11-2015, 06:34 PM
But that is what I am getting at. Removed fury isn't transferred to the stone directly. Rather you remove 1 fury from every enemy model, then afterwards add fury to your stone, one per fury removed, up to a limit of 5. The period makes me think they should not be linked in execution, only in assigning how much can be given to the stone.

For starters, the rule doesn't say that you remove one fury from every model. The rule says that you remove "up to one fury" from every enemy model. The next two sentences then tell you what to do next, and apply an additional limitation on that. And that's followed by the Tactical Tip explaining "No, you can't remove fury when full."

"They put a period here, so these must be two completely independent functions, even though that leads to a result that contradicts the Tactical Tip" isn't a good argument. The Tactical Tips are Intent Made Law.

Wehrkind
01-12-2015, 10:59 AM
Ahhh, there it is, removing up to then makes it make a bit more sense. That does help to imply a limit.

I disagree though that the result contradicts the Tactical Tip. The tip says that you can not use it when full on fury. According to your argument that is entirely unnecessary as if you did use it nothing would happen. If its use makes nothing happen, why include the tip? Why not write the tip as "The stone can only remove as much fury as it can add to itself" or something similar if that is what you mean?

Caladian
01-12-2015, 01:45 PM
Sooo... just to clarify what Solkan said (or I am misreading it)

step 1: Remove up to 1 fury from each model within CMD
step 2: Put a fury on the sentry stone for each fury removed in step 1, up to a maximum of 5
?

the_true_druid
01-12-2015, 01:56 PM
Sooo... just to clarify what Solkan said (or I am misreading it)
step 1: Remove up to 1 fury from each model within CMD
step 2: Put a fury on the sentry stone for each fury removed in step 1, up to a maximum of 5
?

More like this:

step 0: Declare Devour Magic
step 1: Check Range to Intended Target
step 2: Remove 1 Fury/Focus from Target Model
step 3: Add 1 Fury to Sentry Stone
step 4: Check if Sentry Stone contains 5 Fury or if all enemy models in range have been effected by Devour Magic
step 4a: If step 4=No return to step 1
steb 4b: If step 4=Yes End

Caladian
01-12-2015, 02:05 PM
Shouldn't it still be able to strip the 6th Fury first? Due to the sentence structure?

I don't mind if this is the case, but can we get it confirmed that druid's steps are correct?