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View Full Version : Theme forces, specialists, and a Warroom error



Satch
01-13-2015, 06:09 AM
Currently, Warroom allows you to add models to you specialists and because specialists are part of your army, allow you to reach tier levels. I have tried this with about 15 theme lists and it is consistent throughout.

Here is an example:

Garryth
-Chimera
-Banshee
8x MHA
Nayl
2x MHSF (M)
-Commander
-Eiryss3

Specialists:
4x MHSF (m)

The inclusion of the units in specialists are gaining tier benefits for the main list.

My question is, is this how theme lists with specialists are intended to work?

M0Dark
01-13-2015, 07:22 AM
would seem to be a problem as the rules are stating:
Specialists must follow the restrictions of any Theme Force to which they are added. A Theme Force’s established tier level cannot be lowered via substitutions and will not be increased as a result of substitutions even if higher tier requirements are met. The models and units that satisfy the army list’s established tier requirements must be identified, and they can be replaced only with specialist models that fulfill the same tier requirement. Specialist models benefit from all point cost reductions and FA exceptions during list construction and from all in-game bonuses when substituted into a list. Free models granted by a Theme Force bonus cannot be substituted for specialist models. All relationships determined by the player (attached, marshaled, etc.) must be clearly identified for specialist models and units.

DarkLegacy
01-13-2015, 07:34 AM
Checking...

M0Dark
01-20-2015, 05:07 AM
Any verdict on this?

MagnustheJust
01-20-2015, 05:17 AM
Any verdict on this?

Bumping is frowned upon in the rules forums. Also, it has only been a week... sometimes the checking can take up to six months due to the game dev team hashing it out.

wazatdingder
01-20-2015, 05:38 AM
Currently, Warroom allows you to add models to you specialists and because specialists are part of your army, allow you to reach tier levels. I have tried this with about 15 theme lists and it is consistent throughout.

Here is an example:

Garryth
-Chimera
-Banshee
8x MHA
Nayl
2x MHSF (M)
-Commander
-Eiryss3

Specialists:
4x MHSF (m)

The inclusion of the units in specialists are gaining tier benefits for the main list.

My question is, is this how theme lists with specialists are intended to work?

Ok, let me get this straight, cause I have my own questions on the subject. Are you asking if models in your specialists add to your tier bonuses while they are not actually in your army!? That's crazy. That means Force Wall could get 5 free arcanists in addition to what it already has. My concern would be about the legitimatacy of going in and out of tier with specialist. A lot of casters have strong skews in tier and it would be nice to be able to pull out of that if it is a bad matchup.

Satch
01-21-2015, 07:10 AM
Ok, let me get this straight, cause I have my own questions on the subject. Are you asking if models in your specialists add to your tier bonuses while they are not actually in your army!? That's crazy. That means Force Wall could get 5 free arcanists in addition to what it already has. My concern would be about the legitimatacy of going in and out of tier with specialist. A lot of casters have strong skews in tier and it would be nice to be able to pull out of that if it is a bad matchup.

So, your specialists are part of your army as per the rules. The issue is that Warroom interprets this to mean that models that I add to my specialists can be used to satisfy certain tier requirements. (specifically if a requirement states "Include model X in your army", however if the requirement states "Include model X in your battlegroup" Warroom won't accept the requirement as being fulfilled if the model is in your specialists)

So, currently as per Warroom validation rules, if the tier says "The FA of Mage Hunter Assassin solos in the army increases by +1 for each Mage Hunter Strive Force unit included" then the FA of MHAs is increased for every MHSF unit in your army, irrespective of whether it is in your main list or specialists, because your "army" is your main list + specialists.

The specialists rules in SR15 say that models in your specialists must abide by tier rules, and that swapping models cannot result in an illegal main list. Which could allude to the fact that Waroom is wrong (which would be no surprise TBH, it's a complex set of interactions) but the SR15 rules don't expressly say that this practice is illegal.

Hence the question: Is Warroom wrong?

Todosi
01-21-2015, 05:15 PM
Warroom hasn't been updated to include SR 2015 yet. The objectives aren't in there either. Don't rely on War Room as a replacement for the printed rules. There really isn't a way to set up a list with specialists off to the side as SR rules now dictate.

tankrandall
01-21-2015, 05:39 PM
Sweet with the Ark put 4 gun boars in specialist and get 4 free razorboars in the main list

Caladian
01-21-2015, 05:46 PM
Sweet with the Ark put 4 gun boars in specialist and get 4 free razorboars in the main list

No, that is not how it works. The free boars can only go in the list with the models that allows them to be free. There is a tier 'relationship' between the two. You can leave the free boar out of said gun boar goes in, but the free gun boar can only go in with the gun boar that is creating its existence.

tankrandall
01-21-2015, 05:48 PM
No, that is not how it works. The free boars can only go in the list with the models that allows them to be free. There is a tier 'relationship' between the two. You can leave the free boar out of said gun boar goes in, but the free gun boar can only go in with the gun boar that is creating its existence.


That what this question is about...
The way war room is working right now you get 4 free bonus razorboars.

Caladian
01-21-2015, 06:01 PM
Gotcha, sorry.

M0Dark
01-22-2015, 01:55 AM
Sorry for the bump. I had assumed that as the written rules seem to explicitly state that War Room is in error, and War room not having had an update for a while, that as soon as an Infernal had stated "Checking" they would come back with a verdict almost straight away. I think most of the statement in the Masters pack would be irrelevant if the specialists counted as part of the army for tier benefits, If that was the intention that entire paragraph could have been shortened to one line saying that main list and specialists all count for tier requirements and gain associated benefits no matter which are played.

DarkLegacy
01-22-2015, 06:36 AM
Locking until answered.