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Leonard_Dukes
03-02-2015, 02:57 PM
First, the relevant rules quotes:


When a warbeast in this model's battlegroup is destroyed while in its control area, this model can reave the fury points on the warbeast. Before removing the destroyed model from the table, remove its fury points and place them on this model. This model cannot reave fury points from a warbeast in its battlegroup that was destroyed by a friendly attack or as a result of transferring damage to the warbeast.


The models in a warbeast pack share a single FURY stat equal to the number of models currently in the pack. [...] When the pack's FURY stat is reduced as a result of a change in the number of models in the pack, remove fury points in excess of its new FURY stat. If a warbeast in the pack is destroyed while the pack's unit commander is in its controller's control area and its destruction would result in the removal of a fury point from the pack's unit commander, the pack's controller can reave the fury point that would be removed. When a warbeast in a pack is destroyed by damage transferred from its battlegroup controller, however, fury cannot be reaved from the pack.


11.5 - If the model is still boxed, it is destroyed. Resolve effects triggered by a model being destroyed.
11.6 - Remove the destroyed model from the table, then return to the main sequence.


Main question: Is a pack beast considered to no longer be "currently in the pack" as soon as it is destroyed (Attack Sequence 11.5), or only once it's left the table (Attack Sequence 11.6)?

I have a variety of relevant follow-up questions, but they all depend on the resolution to this first question.

somnicide
03-02-2015, 03:41 PM
Probably this one I asked yesterday that has no answer yet https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?223091-Losing-all-members-of-beast-pack-to-simultaneous-friendly-attack

Canadianized
03-02-2015, 07:23 PM
Reading RAW, I think the first question you ask becomes a bit of an irrelevant premise? I guess it depends on your follow up.

If a warbeast in the pack is destroyed while the pack's unit commander is in its controller's control area and its destruction would result in the removal of a fury point from the pack's unit commander, the pack's controller can reave the fury point that would be removed.The way I read it, the "would be" means that the beast is still on the table, and these are all events that lead to the next step. So I see resolution being at step 11.5 of the main attack sequence.

That is, I assume your "currently in the pack" comment is in regards to reaving, as RAW looks like the reaving is resolved before the model physically leaves the table, and the "would result/would be" precedes the actual FURY stat of the pack dropping due to the loss of a member.

Leonard_Dukes
03-02-2015, 07:53 PM
Reading RAW, I think the first question you ask becomes a bit of an irrelevant premise? I guess it depends on your follow up.

If a warbeast in the pack is destroyed while the pack's unit commander is in its controller's control area and its destruction would result in the removal of a fury point from the pack's unit commander, the pack's controller can reave the fury point that would be removed.

The way I read it, the "would be" means that the beast is still on the table, and these are all events that lead to the next step. So I see resolution being at step 11.5 of the main attack sequence.

That is, I assume your "currently in the pack" comment is in regards to reaving, as RAW looks like the reaving is resolved before the model physically leaves the table, and the "would result/would be" precedes the actual FURY stat of the pack dropping due to the loss of a member.

Yeah, that makes sense. I think I spent too long poring over the wording and ended up focusing on the wrong phrases. The "would result in" and "would be" wording does seem to indicate that while you check for reaving conditions upon a pack beast being destroyed, you don't actually wait until after its destruction to resolve the reaving itself.

That being said, my remaining questions (some closely related to the one PG_somnicide posted in another thread) all assume that this interpretation is correct: that upon destruction of a pack beast (but before it is removed from the table) the player checks to see how much the pack's FURY stat would be reduced by, and resolves reaving according to that. So, my related questions are as follows:

Scenario 1: A pack of Blight Wasps has 1 model remaining, with 1 point of fury on it. The model is destroyed by an enemy attack. At this point, does the controlling player determine that the pack's FURY stat "would be" reduced to 0 following the destruction of the remaining model or, since there won't be a pack remaining after that model's destruction to even have a FURY stat, does the player instead rely on the Primal MkII rules for reaving directly from the destroyed commander?

Scenario 2: A pack of Blight Wasps has 2 models remaining, with 2 points of fury on the commander. The models are simultaneously destroyed by an enemy AoE attack. Again, does the player treat the FURY stat as being reduced to 0 (both models destroyed) and use the Exigence rules for reaving, or since there won't be a pack remaining to have a FURY stat, use the Primal MkII rules and reave directly from the destroyed commander?

Scenario 3: A pack of Blight Wasps has 2 models remaining, with 2 points of fury on the commander. The models are simultaneously destroyed by a friendly AoE attack. How much fury, if any, can the player reave from the commander?

Scenario 4: A pack of Blight Wasps has 2 models remaining, with 2 points of fury on the commander. An enemy AoE attack simultaneously destroys one pack beast and damages the warlock, who then transfers enough damage to the other remaining beast to destroy it. How much fury, if any, can the player reave from the commander? Does it matter whether the damage was transferred to the commander or to a grunt?

Scenario 5: A A pack of Blight Wasps has 2 models remaining, with 2 points of fury on the commander. A friendly AoE attack simultaneously destroys one pack beast and damages an enemy Warlock who is able to transfer enough damage to the other remaining pack beast (via an ability such as Talion) such that the remaining beast is also destroyed. How much fury, if any, can the player reave from the commander?

solkan
03-02-2015, 10:41 PM
Scenario 1: A pack of Blight Wasps has 1 model remaining, with 1 point of fury on it. The model is destroyed by an enemy attack. At this point, does the controlling player determine that the pack's FURY stat "would be" reduced to 0 following the destruction of the remaining model or, since there won't be a pack remaining after that model's destruction to even have a FURY stat, does the player instead rely on the Primal MkII rules for reaving directly from the destroyed commander?

I think you're making a faulty leap of logic. Warbeast Packs don't have a fury stat:

The models in a warbeast pack share a single FURY stat equal to the number of models currently in the pack.

The warbeast pack's unit commander has a FURY stat, and the value of that attribute is the number of models in the unit. Units and unit membership don't stop being defined even though none of the unit members are no longer on the table. This is known because mechanics like "return destroyed grunts to their unit" function, which require the destroyed trooper model to have a unit, even if that unit is no longer in play. (Various mechanics like scoring for tie breakers also prevent the unit itself from becoming "undefined". The fact that a unit with no models leaves play temporarily (used as the explanation for why effects on a unit that has no models currently in play expire) doesn't negate everything involving the unit.)

That means that the passage:

The models in a warbeast pack share a single FURY stat equal to the number of models currently in the pack. [...] When the pack's FURY stat is reduced as a result of a change in the number of models in the pack, remove fury points in excess of its new FURY stat.
has to mean "the number of models in the pack on the table" or something equivalent when it says "currently in the pack".

Leonard_Dukes
03-03-2015, 08:05 PM
I think you're making a faulty leap of logic. Warbeast Packs don't have a fury stat:

If I was sloppy with my wording, feel free to substitute "unit commander's FURY stat" whenever I erroneously said "pack's FURY stat". The essence of the question remains unchanged, though: Does the destruction of the last remaining beast in a warbeast pack result in the reaving of that fury based on the Primal rules for reaving, or the Exigence rules for reaving?

I stand by my beginning statement from Post #4, namely that the rules given by Exigence instruct the player to determine if the amount of FURY would be reduced following the destruction of any model(s) in the pack, and that this would preempt the rules for reaving as given by Primal. There are, however, grey areas as I pointed out in that same post, that I don't feel are adequately addressed by simply saying "the number of models currently in the pack is equal to the number of models currently on the table."

Granted, two of those scenarios probably can't be adequately addressed until this thread is resolved (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?221309-Warbeast-Pack-reaving-fury-friendly-attacks-and-enemy-transfers-2), but any scenarios involving only enemy attacks and/or friendly transfers should still be fair game.