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Wolf King
03-04-2015, 07:03 PM
Under Kreoss3's feat can he cast his offensive upkeeps more than once for free? It does say each upkeep but it doesn't specify only once. Can he effectively just keep casting Death Sentence until it hits for free?

Leonard_Dukes
03-04-2015, 07:08 PM
Under Kreoss3's feat can he cast his offensive upkeeps more than once for free? It does say each upkeep but it doesn't specify only once. Can he effectively just keep casting Death Sentence until it hits for free?

He can cast each one once without spending focus, same as eVayl, and as many times as he can afford while spending focus.

[Edit: I see he's lacking the "once" wording that eVayl's feat has. I'm trying to track down a previous ruling one way or the other.]

TheUnknownMercenary
03-04-2015, 07:16 PM
You cast each upkeep spell once for free.

Leonard_Dukes
03-04-2015, 07:20 PM
You cast each upkeep spell once for free.

Comparing the wording of Kreoss3's and eVayl's feats:


Enemy upkeep spells and animi in Kreoss' control area immediately expire. Then Kreoss can immediately cast each upkeep spell on his card without spending focus points.


This activation Vayl can cast each of the spells on her card once without spending fury points.

It's been established that eVayl can cast one spell for free, pay to cast it again, cast a different spell for free, and so on.

I know we're frequently told that the word "immediately" seldom has any real meaning. That being said, does Kreoss3 have to cast all of his "free" spells first, or can he do something similar: cast a free one, pay to cast it again, cast a different free one, etc.?

asikari
03-04-2015, 07:59 PM
More tactics here, but this is essentially splitting hairs over being able to cast death sentence (for free), casting force hammer at the death sentenced target, then casting death sentence against another target, (and maybe force hammer again, with wracks and or hierophant), isn't it? Since only one instance of an upkeep can be in play at a time.

Since iKreoss's feat does not specify a duration, it implies to me that the feat must be resolved (removal of enemy upkeeps and recasting of Kreoss's upkeeps) prior to continuing with his activation.

Compare to eVayle's feat:


This activation...

regleant
03-04-2015, 08:14 PM
More tactics here, but this is essentially splitting hairs over being able to cast death sentence (for free), casting force hammer at the death sentenced target, then casting death sentence against another target, (and maybe force hammer again, with wracks and or hierophant), isn't it? Since only one instance of an upkeep can be in play at a time.


Not correct. He could fail the first casting. Since there is no provision for "just once" that Vayl2 has, he could theoretically continue casting for free until the enemy is tagged.

Once Kreoss3 moves on with the rest of his activation (e.g. casting Force Hammer), the feat has expired and he may not continue benefiting from it.

However, in spite of RAW interpretations, the Infernal declared it only once. So let it be written...

solkan
03-04-2015, 09:41 PM
More tactics here, but this is essentially splitting hairs over being able to cast death sentence (for free), casting force hammer at the death sentenced target, then casting death sentence against another target, (and maybe force hammer again, with wracks and or hierophant), isn't it? Since only one instance of an upkeep can be in play at a time.


Two important things:
1. You can't interrupt the resolution of the feat to use 'at any time' abilities or do things not specified by the feat.
2. As soon as the feat is resolved, it's over, so no more free spell castings.

So, no, you can't interleave spell castings granted by the feat (the effects of the feat) with other spell castings (at any time abilities).

It's the same reason why, for example, Allister Caine can't cast spells in between attacks while resolving his Maelstrom feat.

asikari
03-05-2015, 07:54 PM
Two important things:
1. You can't interrupt the resolution of the feat to use 'at any time' abilities or do things not specified by the feat.
2. As soon as the feat is resolved, it's over, so no more free spell castings.

So, no, you can't interleave spell castings granted by the feat (the effects of the feat) with other spell castings (at any time abilities).

It's the same reason why, for example, Allister Caine can't cast spells in between attacks while resolving his Maelstrom feat.

Yes, I said as much in my second paragraph.


Not correct. He could fail the first casting. Since there is no provision for "just once" that Vayl2 has, he could theoretically continue casting for free until the enemy is tagged.

Admittedly, the meta at my local store is not so pedantic to actively search for such a loophole. Logically, if the intent were Kreoss would successfully hit an enemy with death sentence, the wording would read "enemy models targeted by upkeep spells are automatically hit" rather than imply the player could waste a minute on his own clock trying to roll a "5" on multiple successive attempts.