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CanuckAzzurro
03-18-2015, 10:08 AM
I was playing in a tournament on the weekend and then a casual game with pGrimm, and he had both Janissa and Swamp Gobbers (sp.). What arose was this situation.

pGrimm was on top of a hill and behind Janissa's wall which was placed on the hill as well. pGrimm was also in the cloud effect made by the Swamp Gobbers. Since pGrimm was behind the wall he gained a +4 DEF due to cover, and then a +2 DEF for concealment. Since you can not stack both DEF buffs, only the highest activiates in which case moving pGrimm's DEF to 20. But the question now comes does he get the +2 for being up on a hill as well moving his DEF to 22; please be aware I don't have the ruling with me but I think it is a +2?

So any ranged attack would have to hit pGrimm on DEF 22, any melee attack would require reach because of the wall and would I still get the bonus for being uphill?

Just asking for clarification. At the tournament we agreed shooting at pGrimm would be DEF 20, but never got a chance to exercise the melee aspect of it until the casual game. So just asking for clarification on what pGrimm's DEF's would be in a ranged situation, and a melee situation.

Thanks in advance.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
03-18-2015, 10:12 AM
Modifier from Cover and Concealment does not stacks, but it does stacks with Elevation.

Cover, Concealment and Elevation does nothing against melee attacks.

Leonard_Dukes
03-18-2015, 10:12 AM
But the question now comes does he get the +2 for being up on a hill as well moving his DEF to 22; please be aware I don't have the ruling with me but I think it is a +2?

The +2 DEF bonus granted by Elevation can stack with Concealment or Cover.




So any ranged attack would have to hit pGrimm on DEF 22, any melee attack would require reach because of the wall and would I still get the bonus for being uphill?

I don't have pGrimm's stats in front of me, but against ranged attacks and magic attacks (where Grimm is within 1" of the wall along a line between the attacker and defender) Grimm would get +4 DEF from Cover and +2 DEF from Elevation. Against a melee attack made from over the wall, Grimm would get a +2 DEF bonus - note that this is an "untyped" bonus, and is neither Cover nor Concealment. Elevation offers no DEF bonuses whatsoever against melee attacks.

SageofLodoss
03-18-2015, 10:13 AM
I was playing in a tournament on the weekend and then a casual game with pGrimm, and he had both Janissa and Swamp Gobbers (sp.). What arose was this situation.

pGrimm was on top of a hill and behind Janissa's wall which was placed on the hill as well. pGrimm was also in the cloud effect made by the Swamp Gobbers. Since pGrimm was behind the wall he gained a +4 DEF due to cover, and then a +2 DEF for concealment. Since you can not stack both DEF buffs, only the highest activiates in which case moving pGrimm's DEF to 20. But the question now comes does he get the +2 for being up on a hill as well moving his DEF to 22; please be aware I don't have the ruling with me but I think it is a +2?

So any ranged attack would have to hit pGrimm on DEF 22, any melee attack would require reach because of the wall and would I still get the bonus for being uphill?

Just asking for clarification. At the tournament we agreed shooting at pGrimm would be DEF 20, but never got a chance to exercise the melee aspect of it until the casual game. So just asking for clarification on what pGrimm's DEF's would be in a ranged situation, and a melee situation.

Thanks in advance.

The rule about not stacking Concealment and Cover is specifically for those two things. Nothing prevents you from stacking one of them with the elevated defender status. So against a ranged attack, if Grim is behind a wall and on top of a hill he would be DEF 22 (+4 from Cover, +2 from being on the hill if his attacker is not on a hill).

Against melee, there is no hill or elevation bonus, but if they are swinging at you over the wall Grim would get the obstruction in melee bonus of +2.

CanuckAzzurro
03-18-2015, 10:22 AM
Thank you immensely.

So to recap so I have it right. I know the two DEF buffs do not stack, specifically Cover and Concealment you just take the greater of the two.

vs Ranged: pGrimm would be at DEF 22 if there is a LOS through the cover and on a hill with the attacker being lower then him; DEF 20 if there is no LOS through the cover, in the cloud and on a hill and simply DEF 18 if in the cloud.

vs Melee: pGrimm would be at DEF 16 without a linear obstacle, with the linear obstacle he would be DEF 18.

Thank you so much for clarifying all of this.

juckto
03-18-2015, 11:20 AM
Yes, that is correct.

Note that to claim the Cover bonus, there has to be a line you can draw from the attacker to pGrimm that passes over/through the wall and pGrimm is within 1" of the wall measured along that line.

+Edit:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/juckto/Warmachine/concealment%201inch_zpse33ivim2.png

Leonard_Dukes
03-18-2015, 11:31 AM
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/juckto/Warmachine/concealment%201inch_zpse33ivim2.png

Replacing "Concealment" with "Cover" in that illustration for the purposes of this thread.

RejjeN
03-18-2015, 01:31 PM
Wait, really? I thought the model itself had to be within 1" of the terrain feature, not that the line used to determine if it's obscured or not is <1" to the model :/

I guess that means there's a reason to actually stick fairly close to walls and stuff...

juckto
03-18-2015, 07:19 PM
Refer to the errata.

p. 57. Concealment and Cover.
Add the following after the second sentence of the first
paragraph:
A terrain feature obscures the base of a target model if you can
draw a line from any part of the attacker’s volume to any part of
the target model’s volume and that line passes through that terrain
feature. In order to benefit from concealment or cover, the model
must be within 1˝ of the terrain feature along that straight line.

strangelimp
03-20-2015, 06:53 AM
Just a quick addition: For mêlée, you do not have to be within 1" to get the +2 def bonus, you only need a portion of the model obscured.