PDA

View Full Version : assault with less than 3" of movement



Yurimow
05-17-2010, 10:06 AM
Can a model with the assault ability (or receiving the assault order) perform the ranged attack from assault, if it moved less than 3".

Apperently it doesn't, since the rule says:

As part of a charge, after moving but before making its charge attack,an affected model can make one ranged attack targeting the model
charged...

So if you are not gonna do a charge attack (you don't if you moved less than 3"), you shouldn't be able to do the ranged attack from assault.

BUT, some time ago i asked if a Reckoner could do the ranged assault attack if it charged out of activation a model it is in melee at the beginning of its charge movement (not at the beginning of its activation, since he is not activating). The answer was, yes, he can. Since a model charging a model he is already in melee with at the beginning of it's charge movement can impossibly move more than 3", it looks like we have a conflict.

So again... can a model with assault (ability or order) do the ranged attack against the charged target, if it moved less than 3"?

drugar101
05-17-2010, 10:16 AM
Affected models must charge or run. As part of a charge, after moving but before making its charge attack, an affected model can make one ranged attack targeting the model charged unless they were in melee with each other at the start of the affected modelʼs activation. Models that received this order cannot make combined ranged attacks this activation. When resolving an Assault ranged attack, the attacking model does not suffer the target in melee penalty. If the target is not in melee range after moving, the affected model must still make the ranged attack before its activation ends.The as part of a charge just means for models doing a charge not a run. it has nothing to do with how far they move.

Yaum
05-17-2010, 10:36 AM
Like drugar said, yes it can.
The distance moved is irrelevant. But remember you cannot assault a model that you were in melee with at the start of your activation.

Yurimow
05-17-2010, 11:05 AM
sure, but it says:

As part of a charge, after moving but before making its charge attack,an affected model can make one ranged attack targeting the model charged...

If a model moves less than 3", what it does at the end of the charge movement is not a charge attack.
If doing a charge attack is not a condition for doing the assault attack, how can you tell?

drugar101
05-17-2010, 11:22 AM
Receiving or having some sort of 'assult' ability. And then the constraint that you can't begin in melee with the target and after moving are the 'conditions'.

You even make the ranged attack if you fail your charge. In which case there is never going to be a "charge attack" to worry about going before.

silverpuppy
05-17-2010, 11:29 AM
yurimo

remember that even if a model does not move 3" it is still making a charge "attack" the difference is you do not roll the boosted die since you did not move the required 3".

whatyoutalkinboutwillis
05-17-2010, 11:31 AM
sure, but it says:

As part of a charge, after moving but before making its charge attack,an affected model can make one ranged attack targeting the model charged...

If a model moves less than 3", what it does at the end of the charge movement is not a charge attack.
If doing a charge attack is not a condition for doing the assault attack, how can you tell?

Shouldn't matter. You can Assault a model and if it is out of your charge range you still get to shoot it, thus since you don't get a charge attack in that situation either I would think the same applies to this.

The only stipulation if I remember correctly for Assaulting is you can't have already been in melee with the target.


remember that even if a model does not move 3" it is still making a charge "attack" the difference is you do not roll the boosted die since you did not move the required 3".

Actually that isn't the case, it is only considered a charge attack if you move 3" or greater I think.

Yurimow
05-17-2010, 12:24 PM
You even make the ranged attack if you fail your charge. In which case there is never going to be a "charge attack" to worry about going before.

playing devil's advocate

Some body (i don't, i'm happy with assaulting models moving less than 3") might say, that the fact you do the ranged attack even if you fail the charge (and so there isn't a charge attack) is expressively written. If it wasn't written, then you wouldn't be able to do it, since you are not doing a charge attack after the movement (yeah, i know, it also wouldn't be possibile, because in case of a failed charge your activation ends immediately).

Zaxon
05-17-2010, 12:37 PM
Actually that isn't the case, it is only considered a charge attack if you move 3" or greater I think.

No. If a unit receives the Charge order, all the members must Charge or Run. While this may seem only to sacrifice the additional damage die if you do not move the minimum 3", it is also important for those models because if they are charging, even if they stand still, they still trigger things like Powerful Charge, Brutal Charge, or Set Defense. The same is true for single models (warcasters, warlocks, solos, etc.), although a bit clearer. Because Assault explicitly says you are not considered to be in melee when making the ranged attack, it becomes necessary for the ruling stipulating you may not begin in melee versus your Assault target...otherwise it would allow those models with Assault to use their ranged attacks in melee all the time.

whatyoutalkinboutwillis
05-17-2010, 12:54 PM
No. If a unit receives the Charge order, all the members must Charge or Run. While this may seem only to sacrifice the additional damage die if you do not move the minimum 3", it is also important for those models because if they are charging, even if they stand still, they still trigger things like Powerful Charge, Brutal Charge, or Set Defense.


I don't have my rulebook to quote a page, but I'm almost certain you are mistaken. In the charging section I believe it goes into detail about charges less then 3" are not considered charge attacks, but they are still obligated to attack the charge target. Thus they wouldn't trigger any of those abilities because they all explicitly state gain X on the charge attack roll.

Valander
05-17-2010, 01:02 PM
I don't have my rulebook to quote a page, but I'm almost certain you are mistaken. In the charging section I believe it goes into detail about charges less then 3" are not considered charge attacks, but they are still obligated to attack the charge target. Thus they wouldn't trigger any of those abilities because they all explicitly state gain X on the charge attack roll.

Hm. Kinda grey here, I think, because the rules (p.47) say:

A charging model that ends its charge movement with its charge target in its melee range has made a successful charge.

...

The charging model’s first attack after ending its charge movement must target the model it charged. If the charging model advanced at least 3 ˝, this attack is a charge attack.So, a model that moved less than 3" would still have made a successful charge, but (as you pointed out) it's not a charge attack. I think the wording of the special abilities is extremely important. For example,



Set Defense - A model in this modelʼs front arc suffers –2 on charge, slam power attack, and impact attack rolls against this model.This one does seem to only apply to charge attacks. There might be others, though, that aren't that explicit, and I'm not even sure if this is the intent here or not, honestly.

Weaselcreature
05-17-2010, 01:06 PM
It is correct that a charge of less than 3" does NOT yield a charge attack (things like brutal charge and set defense work because the model DID charge; the Charge Attack is what gives the boosted damage). This portion made me ponder the original question of the thread, until I got to Yurimow's post; an assaulting model who fails his charge still gets to make the ranged attack, even though there is no "charge attack;" with that, I say that a model charging less than 3" still gets to make its ranged attack.

Valander
05-17-2010, 01:16 PM
(things like brutal charge and set defense work because the model DID charge; the Charge Attack is what gives the boosted damage).

I don't think that's the case. Each one of those says "charge attack."


Powerful Charge - This model gains +2 to charge attack rolls with this weapon.
Brutal Charge - This model gains +2 to charge attack damage rolls with this weapon.


And I already quoted Set Defense, which is a little less clearly worded, but does still appear to only apply to charge attack rolls. Not just "if this model was charged."

drugar101
05-17-2010, 01:17 PM
Yall are going off topic. and Brutal Charge and Powerful charge are at least dependant on "Charge Attack" not simply a charge so they won't be in play if a model charges with less than 3 inches of movement.

The assault granted ranged attack is only dependant on 2 things. Receiving the Assault Order and not starting in melee with your target. The other stuff about after the movement and before charge attack is only 'when'. In fact if a model moves only 2 inches from this charge. I would be more likely to argue that allows said model to make its ranged attack after the movement , and then even after a few of its "Initial Melee Attacks" since none of them will be a "charge attack" (right or wrong I am not sure).

whatyoutalkinboutwillis
05-17-2010, 01:20 PM
It is correct that a charge of less than 3" does NOT yield a charge attack (things like brutal charge and set defense work because the model DID charge; the Charge Attack is what gives the boosted damage).


Absolutely not. Quotes from Hordes Final Card PDF so not the best source. IT explicitly states on the Charge Attack Roll, which you don't get if you charge less then 3".

Powerful Charge - This model gains +2 to charge attack rolls with this weapon.

Brutal Charge - This model gains +2 to charge attack damage rolls with this weapon.

Set Defense - A model in this modelʼs front arc suffers ?2 on charge, slam power attack, and impact attack rolls against this
model.

Valander
05-17-2010, 01:22 PM
The assault granted ranged attack is only dependant on 2 things. Receiving the Assault Order and not starting in melee with your target. The other stuff about after the movement and before charge attack is only 'when'. In fact if a model moves only 2 inches from this charge. I would be more likely to argue that allows said model to make its ranged attack after the movement , and then even after a few of its "Initial Melee Attacks" since none of them will be a "charge attack" (right or wrong I am not sure).

Back OT... ;)

Yup. You only have to have gotten the order and not started within melee range of the target to do the ranged attack portion of the Assault. I don't think you'd be able to make an initial attack and then the ranged attack, though, because it says "after moving but before making its charge attack", which implies that it would be before any melee. Granted, it's not explicit, but since you normally can't make an initial melee attack and then a charge attack, I think precedent there is set.

Caeldan
05-17-2010, 06:51 PM
On a tangental note related to Assault.

The rule also specifies that the ranged attack does not take the penalty for ranged attacks into melee. However, I'm curious if that applies still to targets who were already in melee with someone else?

I believe the RAW would be that there is no penalty on the attack, but the RAI would be that there would be a penalty, as I think it assumes that there are no other combatants involved in the situation.

TheUnknownMercenary
05-17-2010, 08:44 PM
On a tangental note related to Assault.

The rule also specifies that the ranged attack does not take the penalty for ranged attacks into melee. However, I'm curious if that applies still to targets who were already in melee with someone else?

I believe the RAW would be that there is no penalty on the attack, but the RAI would be that there would be a penalty, as I think it assumes that there are no other combatants involved in the situation.

This has been asked before and the answer is, no penalty to the attack roll, no matter which models are in melee for the assault attack.

mad prex
05-18-2010, 02:10 AM
so what can be said for this issue?

are the 3" of movement necessary or not to Trigger the ranged attack?

my opinion is that they are necessary because the rules states this:

As part of a charge, after moving but before making its charge attack,an affected model can make one ranged attack targeting the model charged...

So if you are not gonna do a charge attack (you don't if you moved less than 3"), you shouldn't be able to do the ranged attack from assault.

is there any infernal to confirm or deny this?

please excuse my english

Yurimow
05-18-2010, 08:53 AM
Ok, i try to give an explanation to what is said above (answering my own question :D)

I tend to believe (it's not written in the rules but past infernal ruling tells me so) that 'things' coming after something are a condition if they depend on players discretion, while they are not a condition if they depend on game mechanics.

2 examples:
- doing the attack after watcher's movement (zerkovas spell) is a condition for watcher to expire, because doing the attack is at players discretion. So if the player decides to not do the attack, watcher doesn't expire.
- pushing a model is not a condition for the hammersmith to advance after the push in case the model died, because the model dying is not at players discretion, it's an effect of game mechanics. So if the model dies and consequently can't be pushed, the hammersmith can nevertheless advance.

Since doing or not doing a charge attack is not at players discretion, but is an effect of game mechanics, doing the charge attack is not a requirement for beeing able to do the assault attack.

Now...

I'm fully aware begging for infernal intervention is not well seen here, but I REALLY NEED THIS. I'm a kind of rules guru at my LGS. I need to know if this... let's call it 'principle' is right or wrong.

drugar101
05-18-2010, 09:18 AM
I am not sure about watcher however i am pretty sure with Assault that the before charge attack is not in anyway even related to being a criteria for *if* you can make the ranged attack. Its merely defining *when* you do it.

Yurimow
05-18-2010, 09:24 AM
I am not sure about watcher however i am pretty sure with Assault that the before charge attack is not in anyway even related to being a criteria for *if* you can make the ranged attack. Its merely defining *when* you do it.
why are you sure with assault?

drugar101
05-18-2010, 10:42 AM
why are you sure with assault?

Just looking at it purely from the English meaning. If I say, you can walk through a doorway after the door is opened but before you take a picture. Just because you never take a picture doesn't prevent you from walking through the door. You only have to open it first.

rydiafan
05-18-2010, 11:33 AM
Charging a model a foot and a half away in order to get the assault attack is a well known maneuver. Even though your charge fails you still get the ranged attack, so obviously getting a charge attack is not needed in order to get the assault attack.

Caeldan
05-18-2010, 07:36 PM
Charging a model a foot and a half away in order to get the assault attack is a well known maneuver. Even though your charge fails you still get the ranged attack, so obviously getting a charge attack is not needed in order to get the assault attack.

Doesn't failed charges end your action immediately though? I can see if you're too close, as it defines you being able to make your normal initial attacks - and so getting the assault ranged attack then. But if you're too far away, your action ends and nothing else happens.

Typically the meaning of immediately from other rules (ie dispel - tactical tips say that because it's immediate it applies before other effects) means that it interrupts everything else and you do not pass go, do not collect $200.

drugar101
05-18-2010, 08:14 PM
assault states that you make the ranged attack even if you fail your charge.

Caeldan
05-18-2010, 08:23 PM
assault states that you make the ranged attack even if you fail your charge.

So it does. I stand corrected, and must remember some of these tricks for later.

mad prex
05-20-2010, 02:19 AM
drugar101

assault states that you make the ranged attack even if you fail your charge.



if you fail the charge you can still make the ranged attack, but not if you run...

Menset
05-20-2010, 04:24 AM
if you fail the charge you can still make the ranged attack, but not if you run...

We are talking about assault here...normally if you fail a charge and find your not in combat you end your activation.

TheUnknownMercenary
05-20-2010, 05:54 AM
We are talking about assault here...normally if you fail a charge and find your not in combat you end your activation.
With Assault it says the attacking model can make the ranged attack before it's activation ends. For reference check the last sentence of Assault.

Smiles
05-20-2010, 10:42 AM
I love Assault Commando's

Assault & Battery (Order):
Before there normal movement, affected models can make one ranged attack. During their normal movement, affected models must charge or run. The ranged attack is made before declaring a charge target.