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Maddtrippin
06-05-2015, 12:05 PM
Saeryn has psychic vampire which has a range of self. Rhyas has onslaught which also has a range of self. Each spell is only cast on the warlock casting it. Is it legal to have both spells up at the same time since a unit can only have one upkeep on it at a time?

Falkman
06-05-2015, 12:09 PM
Neither upkeep spell is on the unit, they are both on two separate models, so you can upkeep both. You could not however have Onslaught and Banishing ward up on them at the same time, since Banishing ward affects the entire unit.

blademirage
06-05-2015, 02:29 PM
Going by the upkeep rules on pg:78 of the main rulebook, you can only have one upkeep on the unit regardless of which model it is on.

The Captain
06-05-2015, 02:35 PM
Going by the upkeep rules on pg:78 of the main rulebook, you can only have one upkeep on the unit regardless of whish model it is on.
But neither upkeep is on the unit. Neither of those spells can target a unit, so the spells cannot be on the unit. They're on individual models, and no model has two upkeeps on them at the same time.

It's no different than having spiny growth on several members of a Gatorman posse.

blademirage
06-05-2015, 02:53 PM
...A model or unit can have only one friendly and one enemy upkeep spell in play on it at a time. If another upkeep spell is cast on a model or unit that already has one from the same side - friendly or enemy - the older upkeep spell expires and is replaced by the newly cast one when the affected model is hit by the spell. The older upkeep spell expires even if only a single model in the unit is affected by the new upkeep spell. likewise, an upkeep spell on one model expires if its unit is affected by a new upkeep spell from the same side

10 characters

Falkman
06-05-2015, 02:55 PM
10 characters

Yes, but the old upkeep spell is not on the unit, so the unit does not have an upkeep spell on it that will expire when "even a single model" is targeted by the new upkeep.
Likewise, an upkeep spell on one model will not expire if the other model casts an upkeep spell that does not affect the unit, but just that model.

The Captain
06-05-2015, 03:39 PM
Yes. If you have Banishing Ward on the unit and cast either Onslaught or Psychic Vampire, Banishing ward expires. If you have Psychic Vampire and/or Onslaught upkept on Saeryn/Rhyas and cast Banishing ward on the unit, Psychic Vampire and/or Onslaught expire. But if you have Psychic Vampire on saeryn and cast Onslaught on Rhyas, Psychic Vampire does not expire, because neither upkeep spell targets or affects the unit.

silluen
06-06-2015, 02:13 AM
But if you have Psychic Vampire on saeryn and cast Onslaught on Rhyas, Psychic Vampire does not expire, because neither upkeep spell targets or affects the unit.

But in that case they become a unit with two friendly upkeep spells. This IS just what the rule says impossible I think. Even though each SELF spell targets each of the twins, because they are still in a single unit I think it is right that only the last upkeep spell cast is in effect.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-06-2015, 03:20 AM
No. Because both upkeep spells are not unit wide, neither one overrides the other upkeep spells. Actually, the unit does not have any upkeep spells. Both troopers are just having one upkeep spell per each troopers that only affects that trooper.

silluen
06-06-2015, 10:51 AM
if you are right, it's good to me because even in normal version Rhyas was my favorite and gave me most wins and moreover most fun among my 15+ warcasters/warlocks.

But here is my understanding. I think when the rule says [a model or unit (a model/unit)] I should check whether the one I want to clarify is a model or unit first. So because the epic twins is a unit let's change [a model or unit] to [a unit] in the rule blademirage quoted before.


...A unit can have only one friendly and one enemy upkeep spell in play on it at a time. If another upkeep spell is cast on a unit that already has one from the same side - friendly or enemy - the older upkeep spell expires and is replaced by the newly cast one when the affected model is hit by the spell. The older upkeep spell expires even if only a single model in the unit is affected by the new upkeep spell. likewise, an upkeep spell on one model expires if its unit is affected by a new upkeep spell from the same side.

Even though Onslaught or Psychic Vammpire targets SELF still it targets a trooper of a unit. And the first sentence says if it is a unit it can have only one upkeep spell on it. Onslaught and Psychic Vampire are upkeep spells. So only one of them can be in play on the epic twins unit.

Hope I'm wrong but won't change my thought until confirmed differently.

And especially about what you underlined, it seems nonsense to me. Consider a unit is not affected by any upkeep spell even with full members of single-model-targeted upkeep spells on them?

Epic twins are just two models but how will it be when it's possible more than just two? Ah... again, I know only possible cases shoud be discussed in Rules Forum, so don't on this, too. Sorry I'm keep crossing you...

RejjeN
06-06-2015, 11:47 AM
As someone who doesn't really know the rules too well, does a spell with a range of "self" actually target anything?

Grey Templar
06-06-2015, 11:53 AM
As someone who doesn't really know the rules too well, does a spell with a range of "self" actually target anything?

Yes, it targets the model casting the spell as per the range Self rules.

drachenfels
06-06-2015, 02:07 PM
also along this vein if they can have 2 self upkeeps on them and one of them gets hit with Hexblast does it remove both of them?

Grey Templar
06-06-2015, 02:26 PM
It would because IIRC Hex Blast removes upkeeps on model/unit directly hit.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-06-2015, 06:43 PM
if you are right, it's good to me because even in normal version Rhyas was my favorite and gave me most wins and moreover most fun among my 15+ warcasters/warlocks.

But here is my understanding. I think when the rule says [a model or unit (a model/unit)] I should check whether the one I want to clarify is a model or unit first. So because the epic twins is a unit let's change [a model or unit] to [a unit] in the rule blademirage quoted before.



Even though Onslaught or Psychic Vammpire targets SELF still it targets a trooper of a unit. And the first sentence says if it is a unit it can have only one upkeep spell on it. Onslaught and Psychic Vampire are upkeep spells. So only one of them can be in play on the epic twins unit.

Hope I'm wrong but won't change my thought until confirmed differently.

And especially about what you underlined, it seems nonsense to me. Consider a unit is not affected by any upkeep spell even with full members of single-model-targeted upkeep spells on them?

Epic twins are just two models but how will it be when it's possible more than just two? Ah... again, I know only possible cases shoud be discussed in Rules Forum, so don't on this, too. Sorry I'm keep crossing you...

I am understand why you think so. Many people in this thread also says same thing. As you quoted, the rules says that a model/unit can only have one friendly and one enemy upkeep spells. I think that it is the matter of interpret the rules. You think that a unit have only one upkeep spell whatever the upkeep spell is targets only one member or not, because it says a model/unit can only have an upkeep spell. I, and someone thinks otherwise, that if the upkeep spell does not says target model/unit or target unit, then it only follows 'a model can have only one upkeep spell' and both troopers are able to hold the upkeep spell.

Anyway, it is clear that if a unit have an upkeep spell that affects the unit and someone casts an upkeep spell to a trooper that is only target model or vise versa(provided both of them are friendly or enemy), the former will be expired. There is no doubt about this, since unit wide upkeep spell is considered as upkeeping through all troopers in the unit so it can't be exists with an upkeep spell that targets only one model in the unit..

https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?61711-Casting-the-same-animus-on-multiple-models-in-the-same-unit

It is not the ruling for a spell and it is danger to have a broad interpretation, but animus works similar with spells so I think that upkeep spells are works as same.

Personally, I am hope that I am right, because I think that it is intended to upkeep both spells when play the twin warlock unit.

And can you put aside the personal attacks? I am not here to disturb you, but you are almost always teasing me. Have the other opinion is fine because you have your own reason to think otherwise, and I respect that as well. But it is diffrent with this.

silluen
06-06-2015, 09:52 PM
I am understand why you think so. Many people in this thread also says same thing. As you quoted, the rules says that a model/unit can only have one friendly and one enemy upkeep spells. I think that it is the matter of interpret the rules. You think that a unit have only one upkeep spell whatever the upkeep spell is targets only one member or not, because it says a model/unit can only have an upkeep spell. I, and someone thinks otherwise, that if the upkeep spell does not says target model/unit or target unit, then it only follows 'a model can have only one upkeep spell' and both troopers are able to hold the upkeep spell.

Anyway, it is clear that if a unit have an upkeep spell that affects the unit and someone casts an upkeep spell to a trooper that is only target model or vise versa(provided both of them are friendly or enemy), the former will be expired. There is no doubt about this, since unit wide upkeep spell is considered as upkeeping through all troopers in the unit so it can't be exists with an upkeep spell that targets only one model in the unit..

https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?61711-Casting-the-same-animus-on-multiple-models-in-the-same-unit

It is not the ruling for a spell and it is danger to have a broad interpretation, but animus works similar with spells so I think that upkeep spells are works as same.

Personally, I am hope that I am right, because I think that it is intended to upkeep both spells when play the twin warlock unit.

And can you put aside the personal attacks? I am not here to disturb you, but you are almost always teasing me. Have the other opinion is fine because you have your own reason to think otherwise, and I respect that as well. But it is diffrent with this.

Now you are listening, Stormpuppy. I admit that your point of view also can be valid. Even when I wrote my opinion previously I worried that there is no spell onRhyas to be expired if Saeryn has Psychic Vampire on her. At least for now the rule can be read both ways. Still I decided to focus on the fact that they are single unit. Using both spells at the same time seems like a bypass hole, feels illegal to me. :)

There is no Animus that can be upkept or can affect entire unit with one casting/forcing. Besides about the slot limit it's more similar to non-upkeep spells so comparing those two seems not helpful here.

Anyway I'll apologize if you thought I'm teasing you. Actually my post has been moded possibly because of that.

Lanz
06-06-2015, 09:58 PM
As far as I know, the two upkeeps cancel each other normally. They are both target self, so I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that they aren't on the unit. If they were target CTRL (like Foxhole, Veil of Mists, etc) then they could have them both up, which might be what people are thinking.

Leonard_Dukes
06-06-2015, 11:14 PM
How is casting two single-target spells on different models in the unit any different from casting two single-target animi on different models in the unit?

The latter has already been ruled to be legal (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?51078-Same-Animus-on-multiple-models-on-a-Unit&p=710191&viewfull=1#post710191)and shares the same wording on targeting and expiration.

A spell that targets "Self" is a spell that affects a single model, not a model/unit such as, for example, Banishing Ward or Occultation. That is the distinction people are making when they say that a Target: Self spell is not "on the unit".


There is no Animus that can be upkept or can affect entire unit with one casting/forcing

The Cyclops Shaman's "Spirit Blade" targets a friendly model/unit.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-06-2015, 11:36 PM
Now you are listening, Stormpuppy. I admit that your point of view also can be valid. Even when I wrote my opinion previously I worried that there is no spell onRhyas to be expired if Saeryn has Psychic Vampire on her. At least for now the rule can be read both ways. Still I decided to focus on the fact that they are single unit. Using both spells at the same time seems like a bypass hole, feels illegal to me. :)

There is no Animus that can be upkept or can affect entire unit with one casting/forcing. Besides about the slot limit it's more similar to non-upkeep spells so comparing those two seems not helpful here.

Anyway I'll apologize if you thought I'm teasing you. Actually my post has been moded possibly because of that.

Yes, though I am aim for its common thing(can only have one friendly animus at a model/unit), but still animus is not the same thing with upkeep spell....

And I think that your opinion is also valid. It can be intended that a whole unit can only have one friendly/enemy upkeep spell, whatever the spell only affects one trooper in a unit. Then we have to wait until the answer is come. :(


Also, yes I am accept the apoligize as well as sorry to you for bothering you long times. Actually, I am understand that you have a bad feeling for me because of my annoying behavior of past times against you. I will be careful.

silluen
06-07-2015, 06:06 AM
The Cyclops Shaman's "Spirit Blade" targets a friendly model/unit.

Oops! I missed that one. I was wrong about unit wide Animus but still it can't be upkept. That is where the difference begins.

Mod_Neldar
06-07-2015, 06:39 AM
Oops! I missed that one. I was wrong about unit wide Animus but still it can't be upkept. That is where the difference begins.

How is that relevant? What matters here is the targeting and overriding rules. The rest of the effects of these abilities don't matter.

wazatdingder
06-07-2015, 09:29 AM
I think nomatter what this will need to have some official clarification down the road. This unit creates a situation that is a little new to game. Sure, one could have tried to put 2 individual up keeps on 2 models in the same unit in the past (assuming someone has a spell list that could), but there really hasn't been a situation where 2 models in a unit were so valuable that one has had to consider it this strongly.

From what I can tell, the "model/unit" wording may be unnessessary if one wanted to make this legal. Changing the wording to just "model" with the understanding that any overlapping spells cause cancellation should be enough.

Leonard_Dukes
06-07-2015, 09:49 AM
This unit creates a situation that is a little new to game.

The only unique aspect of this situation is that we're talking about members of a unit casting spells on themselves. There are plenty of casters who can put out more than one model-specific spell on multiple models at a time.



Sure, one could have tried to put 2 individual up keeps on 2 models in the same unit in the past (assuming someone has a spell list that could), but there really hasn't been a situation where 2 models in a unit were so valuable that one has had to consider it this strongly.

The "value" of the models is irrelevant, as the issue has already been considered and resolved in the past.

In the hope of putting this to rest, consider the virtually identical wording with regard to targeting/expiration restrictions on spells and animi:


A model or unit can have only one friendly and one enemy upkeep spell in play on it at a time.

If another upkeep spell is cast on a model or unit that already has one from the same side - friendly or enemy - the older upkeep spell expires and is replaced by the newly cast one when the affected model is hit by the spell.

The older upkeep spell expires even if only a single model in the unit is affected by the new upkeep spell. likewise, an upkeep spell on one model expires if its unit is affected by a new upkeep spell from the same side.


A model or unit can have only one friendly animus in play on it at a time.

If another friendly animus is cast on a model or unit the older friendly animus expires and is replaced by the new one when the affected model is hit by the animus.

The older friendly animus expires even if only a single model in the unit is affected by the new friendly animus.

To reinforce this, consider this final comment in a thread that was closed without Infernal comment, indicating a correct answer:


The animus rules mirror the upkeep rules in how they apply to units.

And how do the animus rules work with regard to units?


If it says target model, then yes you can have it on multiple models in a unit. If it says target model/unit, it will affect the entire unit and if another another animus is applied to the unit, either the whole unit or one model in the unit, it will cause the first animus to expire.

Do Onslaught and Psychic Vampire target a model, or a unit? They are Target: Self, which means they target only one model - the caster.

Unless you want to argue that Flashing Blade lets Butcher3 and his War Arguses all make an attack.

So, to summarize:

The rules for casting animi on troopers are the same as for casting upkeep spells on troopers.

You can cast multiple "target model" animi on different troopers in a unit without without expiring any of those animi.

Ergo, you can cast multiple "target model" spells on different troopers in a unit without expiring any spells on the unit.

Stevo
06-07-2015, 12:17 PM
In a 100 point game where a Four Star Contract army with General Ossrum and Magnus the Warlord, would both casters be able to put Bullet Dodger on the two members of a unit of Kayazy Eliminators?

Falkman
06-07-2015, 12:29 PM
In a 100 point game where a Four Star Contract army with General Ossrum and Magnus the Warlord, would both casters be able to put Bullet Dodger on the two members of a unit of Kayazy Eliminators?
Yes. Leonard_Dukes provides the reasoning and rules quotes as to why.

wazatdingder
06-07-2015, 08:11 PM
O
The only unique aspect of this situation is that we're talking about members of a unit casting spells on themselves. There are plenty of casters who can put out more than one model-specific spell on multiple models at a time.

Please. Give me an example and I will shut up right now. I was vague in my post because I honestly could not think of any caster in the game who could legally cast 2 model specific upkeep spells on 2 models of one unit. After your comment I got through a few factions when I realized I am likely right and will let you do the leg work. There may be one out there that I missed, but I doubt there are "plenty". This has nothing to do with the argument at hand, I just don't like being called out as misinformed by someone who is citing less or equal evidence but claiming to know more.


For the record, I am 100% on the side that they each should be able to have a "self" spell up. My criticism comes in the wording of the rules as written that include the word "unit" that may cause confusion. There is no need for this word to be included. If the upkeep rule simply dropped that and said that no single model may be the target of multiple upkeeps, then by default, an upkeep cast on a unit that overlaps a model with one already on it would cancel the first spell, and vice versa.

The use of the wording "model/unit" in the rules implies a situation that may or may not be appropriate for the intent of the rule and can lead to some confusion as we are all quite aware of right now.

I honestly do not care either way it is ruled, I am just stating where in the rules the confusion may be found and how one may clean it up so that there is no doubt of how the rule is intended to work, because the last thing I want to do on game day is argue semantics with my opponent.

Leonard_Dukes
06-07-2015, 09:12 PM
O
Please. Give me an example and I will shut up right now.

pAbsylonia can cast Forced Evolution on one Blight Wasp, and Playing God on another in the same pack.

eVayl can cast Refuge on one trooper in a warbeast pack, and Admonition on another trooper in the same warbeast pack.

If it helps, you can amend my earlier comment to say that there are plenty of instances where more than one model-only upkeep spells can be cast on the same unit - trivially easy with multiple-caster games, and marginally easier with the inclusion of "junior" warcaster's and lesser warlocks.


This has nothing to do with the argument at hand

Agreed.

sterling319
06-08-2015, 07:52 PM
Never mind, I'm an idiot. There's a little button on your quote.

Edit: After reading the linked posts, I have to agree with Leonard_Dukes. You can have as many single-target upkeeps on a unit as there are models in the unit/possible upkeeps of that description.

Stevo
06-09-2015, 12:12 AM
pAbsylonia can cast Forced Evolution on one Blight Wasp, and Playing God on another in the same pack.

eVayl can cast Refuge on one trooper in a unit, and Admonition on another trooper in the same unit.

If it helps, you can amend my earlier comment to say that there are plenty of instances where more than one model-only upkeep spells can be cast on the same unit - trivially easy with multiple-caster games, and marginally easier with the inclusion of "junior" warcaster's and lesser warlocks.



Agreed.


You can't cast Admonition on a model outside of your battlegroup, sadly.

Caladian
06-09-2015, 12:46 AM
You can't cast Admonition on a model outside of your battlegroup, sadly.

Blight wasps

Stevo
06-09-2015, 01:37 AM
Blight wasps

Which are part of the battlegroup,right?

The post didn't specify Wasps.

Leonard_Dukes
06-09-2015, 07:21 AM
Which are part of the battlegroup,right?

The post didn't specify Wasps.

I have corrected my post, and will explain here how that change affects the answer to OP's question:


It doesn't.

DarkLegacy
06-10-2015, 06:01 AM
Checking...

DarkLegacy
06-17-2015, 06:55 AM
Saeryn2 can cast Psychic Vampire on herself and Rhyas2 can cast Onslaught on herself, both upkeeps being in play at the same time. You cannot cast a model/unit upkeep and a model upkeep on the same model, so you cannot have Psychic Vampire and Occultation up at the same time on Saeryn2/Rhyas2.

silluen
06-17-2015, 07:01 AM
Wow, thanks for clarification~
I was wrong! But I'm very happy now~! Cool~

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-17-2015, 07:16 AM
Wow! Thanks for the answer! And it is awesome!