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imoevi
06-07-2015, 06:15 PM
I'm imagining a turn where the unit activates and decides to do a charge/run order.

Do models in the unit have to declare that they are charging or running before they do anything during their activation?

Case 1 For example, I declare that the unit is going to charge. Future Haley cannot charge, but if I cast a spell, then she also cannot run. If this is the case, then she has to forfeit both her movement and activation.

Case 2 If she has to declare running before doing anything, then she cannot do anything but move that turn.

Which is it?

Malkav13
06-07-2015, 06:27 PM
You don't declare until the members of the unit begin what they are going to do.

Wild
06-07-2015, 06:29 PM
If you're intending to declare an order, you have to keep in mind what's going on. In the case of 1, the Order has been declared already and Future Haley must run. She is not allowed to cast spells. In the case of 2, the Order becomes illegal and must be reversed. This is in line with rewinding the game to last legal state. Remember Warcasters can cast spells before doing anything with Orders, Movement, and Actions.

solkan
06-07-2015, 07:03 PM
I'm imagining a turn where the unit activates and decides to do a charge/run order.

Do models in the unit have to declare that they are charging or running before they do anything during their activation?

Case 1 For example, I declare that the unit is going to charge. Future Haley cannot charge, but if I cast a spell, then she also cannot run. If this is the case, then she has to forfeit both her movement and activation.

Case 2 If she has to declare running before doing anything, then she cannot do anything but move that turn.

Which is it?

Keep two things in mind:
1. Each model in the unit gets to choose separately whether to run or charge when it resolves it's movement. No one has to decide early just because they cast a spell or want to cast a spell.

2. Declaring a charge against a model you can see but can't reach, or declaring a charge against a friendly model, are both valid charges.

3. If you have a condition that says "Cannot charge" you can still choose the charge option of the order. You'll go through the "must charge but cannot charge" rules.

I wonder if maybe we'll build up enough warcaster units that an errata will come forth declaring that 'warcasters cannot run in an activation in which they cast a spell' is a 'cannot run' effect.

Because the rewinding on this is going to get messy at times. And this like an Icy Grip v. Charge Order flashback.

vintersbastard
06-08-2015, 01:48 AM
Because the rewinding on this is going to get messy at times.
Well, no rewinding involved - orders are issued before any spells can be cast.

Dino-Czar
06-08-2015, 03:54 AM
So I'm clear:

Future Haley has no weapon she could use during a charge.

Future Haley receives the run/charge order.

Future Haley casts a spell before moving.

Future Haley then elects to run, and cannot run due to spell casting, so she makes a full advance and ends her activation.


Correct?

imoevi
06-08-2015, 04:24 AM
That's the question I have. According to the rules, if you cast spells, you cannot run. Therefore, she MUST charge, but since she cannot charge, she forfeits both movement and action.

If that's how it works. My question is, is she allowed to declare the charge so that she can cast a spell or is she required to run because she cannot declare a charge?

Dino-Czar
06-08-2015, 04:48 AM
That's the question I have. According to the rules, if you cast spells, you cannot run. Therefore, she MUST charge, but since she cannot charge, she forfeits both movement and action.

If that's how it works. My question is, is she allowed to declare the charge so that she can cast a spell or is she required to run because she cannot declare a charge?

She cannot declare a charge, as she has no melee weapon (or gunfighter). It isn't an option for her, ever. She can declare a run, and then find herself under an effect that forbids running (i.e. having cast a spell). My understanding is that she then defaults to a full advance/end activation scenario as per the run rules.

vintersbastard
06-08-2015, 05:46 AM
She cannot declare a charge, as she has no melee weapon (or gunfighter). It isn't an option for her, ever.
She should be able to follow the charge order (even if a model cannot charge, it can still pick that option, cf. here (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?89600-Icy-Grip-and-Charging&p=1203876&viewfull=1#post1203876)); if she does, she will forfeit movement and action because she cannot charge.

Thanatos_elNyx
06-08-2015, 06:52 AM
So I'm clear:

Future Haley has no weapon she could use during a charge.

Future Haley receives the run/charge order.

Future Haley casts a spell before moving.

Future Haley then elects to run, and cannot run due to spell casting, so she makes a full advance and ends her activation.


Correct?

No, when Haley receives the order, you already know she is running so can't cast any spells.

Dino-Czar
06-08-2015, 08:08 AM
No, when Haley receives the order, you already know she is running so can't cast any spells.

Is "knowing that you will run" a rules condition? Serious question, since you can choose to charge without the ability to do so I don't see why you couldn't take the run order without the ability to follow it.

Psyllus
06-08-2015, 04:30 PM
So I'm clear:

Future Haley has no weapon she could use during a charge.

Future Haley receives the run/charge order.

Future Haley casts a spell before moving.

Future Haley then elects to run, and cannot run due to spell casting, so she makes a full advance and ends her activation.


Correct?

I think that's correct, but will come down to: When does not having a melee weapon invalidate the ability to charge?

Leo_the_Rat
06-08-2015, 05:15 PM
Always, part of the requirement for a charge is to have a melee attack available to the model. So unless the model has a special rule (like gunfighter) or a melee attack available to it it can not charge.
The last line of the first paragraph under charge says, "A model without a melee range can not charge." Primal p46

DarkLegacy
06-10-2015, 06:07 AM
Checking...

DarkLegacy
06-17-2015, 07:18 PM
If a charge order is given to a unit and a model within that unit must run due to some effect (like not having a valid melee weapon to charge with), you cannot do something that would prohibit you from running that is optional. In this case, you cannot cast a spell with Haley Future due to being forced to run from the charge order.

Kaorti
06-17-2015, 08:25 PM
For clarification, what happens if future Haley3 casts spells at the beginning of the unit's activation, and then the unit receives the charge order?

Am I still allowed to issue the order? If I Issue the order, what happens to future Haley3?

DarkLegacy
06-17-2015, 08:38 PM
For clarification, what happens if future Haley3 casts spells at the beginning of the unit's activation, and then the unit receives the charge order?

Am I still allowed to issue the order? If I Issue the order, what happens to future Haley3?
You cannot use "anytime" abilities before giving an order: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?197209-Call-to-Action. Orders come at the absolute beginning of an activation.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-17-2015, 08:44 PM
If a charge order is given to a unit and a model within that unit must run due to some effect (like not having a valid melee weapon to charge with), you cannot do something that would prohibit you from running that is optional. In this case, you cannot cast a spell with Haley Future due to being forced to run from the charge order.

So, does it also means that a trooper without any valid weapon to charge cannot choose to charge and must choose to run when it issued charge order, not just troopers in Haley3? Like as Aiyana in Lady Aiyana & Master Holt unit.

lobachevskii
06-17-2015, 11:17 PM
So, does it also means that a trooper without any valid weapon to charge cannot choose to charge and must choose to run when it issued charge order, not just troopers in Haley3? Like as Aiyana in Lady Aiyana & Master Holt unit.

Yes, but that has always been the case ... .

The difference between Future Haley and Aiyanna (or Bile Thralls) is that Future Haley has Focus Manipulation and thus access to "at any time" abilities which could have precluded running.

vintersbastard
06-18-2015, 03:01 AM
If a charge order is given to a unit and a model within that unit must run due to some effect (like not having a valid melee weapon to charge with), you cannot do something that would prohibit you from running that is optional.
Does the reverse also apply? I.e. can a trooper under Icy Grip only pick the charge option of a charge order?

I'm just making sure whether Macallan's ruling (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?89600-Icy-Grip-and-Charging&p=1203876&viewfull=1#post1203876) gets overturned completely, or just in part.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-18-2015, 03:03 AM
Yes, but that has always been the case ... .

The difference between Future Haley and Aiyanna (or Bile Thralls) is that Future Haley has Focus Manipulation and thus access to "at any time" abilities which could have precluded running.

Got it. Well, anyway some want to do this in odd case....

spartan2pt0
06-18-2015, 05:05 AM
You cannot use "anytime" abilities before giving an order: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?197209-Call-to-Action. Orders come at the absolute beginning of an activation.

Isn't this different for warcasters and/or warcaster units? I mean Butcher 3 can cast energizer then charge, no?

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-18-2015, 05:15 AM
Isn't this different for warcasters and/or warcaster units? I mean Butcher 3 can cast energizer then charge, no?

Yeah, Butcher3 issue the charge order first, after then he can cast Energizer then charge. It is nothing wrong with the ruling.

lobachevskii
06-18-2015, 05:16 AM
Isn't this different for warcasters and/or warcaster units? I mean Butcher 3 can cast energizer then charge, no?

Orders are given and received several steps before the unit's movement begins. Consequently Butcher3 can give a charge order, then cast Energiser, and then carry out the charge. He cannot cast Energiser, check whether he is now within threat range, issue a charge order and then carry out the charge. If he casts Energiser without having issued a charge order, he cannot charge (without some other ability allowing him to charge without an order).

spartan2pt0
06-18-2015, 05:30 AM
K just checking the interaction.
So Prime Haley issues run/charge, then can cast spells. Past Haley can cast spells at this time, but since Future Haley has received the charge/run order which she isn't capable of so she can't cast anything?

Seems like charging at all prevents the units use of revive, ghost walk and her gun completely for that activation. Curious if that is the intention.

DarkLegacy
06-18-2015, 05:34 AM
Isn't this different for warcasters and/or warcaster units? I mean Butcher 3 can cast energizer then charge, no?
It is as these next two said.

Yeah, Butcher3 issue the charge order first, after then he can cast Energizer then charge. It is nothing wrong with the ruling.


Orders are given and received several steps before the unit's movement begins. Consequently Butcher3 can give a charge order, then cast Energiser, and then carry out the charge. He cannot cast Energiser, check whether he is now within threat range, issue a charge order and then carry out the charge. If he casts Energiser without having issued a charge order, he cannot charge (without some other ability allowing him to charge without an order).
Unit activation -> Orders/Forfeiting for Knockdown (either order) -> Anytime abilities (spells, Fell Calls, etc) -> Movement -> Anytime abilities -> Action -> Anytime abilities. There are points where the special rules will change this default structure, but nothing can preempt the order/forfeiting stage.

DarkLegacy
06-18-2015, 05:35 AM
K just checking the interaction.
So Prime Haley issues run/charge, then can cast spells. Past Haley can cast spells at this time, but since Future Haley has received the charge/run order which she isn't capable of so she can't cast anything?

Seems like charging at all prevents the units use of revive, ghost walk and her gun completely for that activation. Curious if that is the intention.
That's the correct interaction.

DarkLegacy
06-18-2015, 05:51 AM
Does the reverse also apply? I.e. can a trooper under Icy Grip only pick the charge option of a charge order?

I'm just making sure whether Macallan's ruling (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?89600-Icy-Grip-and-Charging&p=1203876&viewfull=1#post1203876) gets overturned completely, or just in part.
Checking...

spartan2pt0
06-18-2015, 06:11 AM
Thanks DL for the quick response :)

Ruffy
06-19-2015, 12:09 AM
Does this have any implication concerning unit attachments and mini-feats? I was under the impression that it was possible to use it when the unit receives a run order, have I been playing it wrong?

lobachevskii
06-19-2015, 12:17 AM
Does this have any implication concerning unit attachments and mini-feats? I was under the impression that it was possible to use it when the unit receives a run order, have I been playing it wrong?

No. In general "at any time" abilities can be used before running (despite receiving a run order). Spells/animi and feats are specifically prohibited in the run rules.

banthur
06-19-2015, 12:17 AM
Does this have any implication concerning unit attachments and mini-feats? I was under the impression that it was possible to use it when the unit receives a run order, have I been playing it wrong?

You have not been playing it wrong. See DL's post above; you ISSUE the order then are allowed to use any-time abilities then your normal movement starts. As long as you declare "I am issuing the charge/run order and doing <mini feat>" you have played correctly!

Hellhammer
06-19-2015, 12:53 AM
Wouldn't it be easier to allow a model to charge as long as it has an offensive spell on the card?
after all whats the difference to *action casters? they are both allowed to cast in melee...

edit: this would also allow Rasheth to charge

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-19-2015, 01:02 AM
Wouldn't it be easier to allow a model to charge as long as it has an offensive spell on the card?
after all whats the difference to *action casters? they are both allowed to cast in melee...

edit: this would also allow Rasheth to charge

Also it is not the rules question.

There is no reason to allow them to charge too.

tutakai
07-07-2015, 06:24 AM
That's the correct interaction.

I've read this thread several times and there does not yet appear to be a clear answer to the question: Does Future Haley lose the ability to cast spells on a turn when the unit receives a run/charge order or not?

If so, this is a MAJOR nerf to a unit that is already moving towards the bottom tier due to overly expensive spells, Past Haley's low spellcasting RAT (Force Hammer is effectively COST9 if you actually want to hit anything), confusion over when the ghosts can allocate, etc.

Mod_Neldar
07-07-2015, 06:41 AM
DarkLegacy confirmed above that a charge order prevents Haley Future from casting spells.

Juris
07-07-2015, 07:13 AM
I've read this thread several times and there does not yet appear to be a clear answer to the question: Does Future Haley lose the ability to cast spells on a turn when the unit receives a run/charge order or not?

If so, this is a MAJOR nerf to a unit that is already moving towards the bottom tier due to overly expensive spells, Past Haley's low spellcasting RAT (Force Hammer is effectively COST9 if you actually want to hit anything), confusion over when the ghosts can allocate, etc.

Really? Bottom Tier? Wow...out of touch...

nuclear
07-19-2015, 09:14 AM
It is as these next two said.



Unit activation -> Orders/Forfeiting for Knockdown (either order) -> Anytime abilities (spells, Fell Calls, etc) -> Movement -> Anytime abilities -> Action -> Anytime abilities. There are points where the special rules will change this default structure, but nothing can preempt the order/forfeiting stage.

So, correct me if my understanding of this is wrong-

If Future Haley was knocked down, the unit activates, she forfeits her action to stand and then the unit receives the charge/run order. As she has no melee range, she is compelled to run, and since she forfeited her action to stand, she is then compelled to make a full advance and have her activation end immediately. Since she is now not running, does that mean that she can cast spells in the "anytime abilities" step between forfeiture/orders and movement as you outlined above?

Kauzu
07-19-2015, 10:36 AM
I don't think she can. She received the run order and therefore can't cast spells. That another effect prevents her from making the full run does not negate that she received the order.

Think you might be overthinking this some. At this point there is nothing that allows future haley to still cast if the unit receives a charge/run order.

Macallan
12-18-2015, 03:03 PM
She should be able to follow the charge order (even if a model cannot charge, it can still pick that option, cf. here (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?89600-Icy-Grip-and-Charging&p=1203876&viewfull=1#post1203876)); if she does, she will forfeit movement and action because she cannot charge.
This is being reversed.
If you cannot charge but you can run, they you will have to run.

Macallan
12-18-2015, 03:04 PM
So, correct me if my understanding of this is wrong-

If Future Haley was knocked down, the unit activates, she forfeits her action to stand and then the unit receives the charge/run order. As she has no melee range, she is compelled to run, and since she forfeited her action to stand, she is then compelled to make a full advance and have her activation end immediately. Since she is now not running, does that mean that she can cast spells in the "anytime abilities" step between forfeiture/orders and movement as you outlined above?
She cannot run nor charge so she can cast spells, then advance then her activation immediately ends.