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TheAdept
06-08-2015, 10:58 AM
Another Haley3 question! If Officer Haley issues a charge order (for instance, she wants Past Haley to charge something with her kinda-weaponmaster), what happens to Future Haley? She doesn't have a melee weapon, so can't charge, but if she casts a spell before moving, she can't run.

Options:
1) Just make a full advance, sacrificing her action;
2) Not allowed to cast spells;
3) Something else.

I think it's (1), but I'm not sure.

Leonard_Dukes
06-08-2015, 11:03 AM
Consider the scenario in which members of a unit receive the Charge/Run order but cannot do either, due to some spell or effect such as Temporal Barrier:


Prime mk2 page 46: "If a model cannot run due to some effect and is required to run, instead of running it makes a full advance, then its activation immediately ends."
Prime mk2 page 47: "Some effects require a model to charge. [..] if it cannot, the model activates but must forfeit its movement and action."

As you can see, a model receiving the run/charge order while under the effect of Temporal barrier have the option to either make a full advance and forfeit action, or to stand completely still and forfeit both movement and action.

Note that in neither case does the model in question actually charge or run, so it could still do things that are prevented by a failed charge or by running, such as cast spells and use a feat.

Ostrakon
06-08-2015, 11:05 AM
Doesn't that mean, though, that once the advance ended you couldn't actually cast spells since your activation immediately ends?

Leonard_Dukes
06-08-2015, 11:06 AM
Doesn't that mean, though, that once the advance ended you couldn't actually cast spells since your activation immediately ends?

Yes, the timing of the spellcasting is important here, but you aren't completely prohibited from it, as the model would be if it had actually ran.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-08-2015, 11:11 AM
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?174698-Warcaster-Unit-Question&highlight=warlock+unit+spell

Case 2 is correct.

https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?101136-Aiyana-amp-Holt-charge&highlight=aiyana+charge

Also Haley Future cannot even choose to charge.

dinnar
06-09-2015, 04:48 AM
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?174698-Warcaster-Unit-Question&highlight=warlock+unit+spell

Case 2 is correct.

https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?101136-Aiyana-amp-Holt-charge&highlight=aiyana+charge

Also Haley Future cannot even choose to charge.

I'm sorry, but dosen't the first link says clearly that case 3 (edit) is correct? In Post #14, Valander (been an infernal at the time) said:


3. If the leader cannot charge and issues a charge order, then it can cast spells, then pick charge and follow "cannot charge" rules.


4. If the leader cannot charge, cannot run and issues a charge order, then it can cast spells, then follow "cannot charge" rules.

Even more:


Sorry, those rules would be:


Originally Posted by Prime, p. 47
Some effects require a model to charge. A model required to charge must charge a model to which it can draw line of sight. If there are no models in its line of sight, or if it cannot charge, the model activates but must forfeit its movement and action.

So, the activation would not be done if there were no valid targets it could charge until the rest of the unit finished activating. Since spells/feats don't require being in the action segment, yes, you could still cast.


So in my understanding you can give the Charge order to let teenHaley charge something, cast a spell with both (present and future) Haley, charge with present something and then forfeit movement and action with future Haley...

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Edit: She can't advance, she has to forfeit movement and action. So not case 1 is correct, case 3 is. Sorry for the confusion.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-09-2015, 04:57 AM
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?174698-Warcaster-Unit-Question&p=2245663&viewfull=1#post2245663


1. If the leader issues a run order, it cannot cast spells or use feats, etc.

Also a models without a melee weapon cannot choose to charge and it must choose to run, so I think that case 2 is correct because of this. Well, am I wrong?

dinnar
06-09-2015, 05:11 AM
But we are not talking about an run order, we are talking about giving a charge order... :)

vintersbastard
06-09-2015, 05:22 AM
Also a models without a melee weapon cannot choose to charge and it must choose to run, so I think that case 2 is correct because of this. Well, am I wrong?

Nowhere do the rules state that a model without a melee weapon cannot choose to charge (i.e., follow that part of a charge order); they just state that a model without a melee range cannot charge. As dinnar pointed out, that case is covered by statement #3 in Valander's post.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-09-2015, 05:41 AM
Nowhere do the rules state that a model without a melee weapon cannot choose to charge (i.e., follow that part of a charge order); they just state that a model without a melee range cannot charge. As dinnar pointed out, that case is covered by statement #3 in Valander's post.

https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?101136-Aiyana-amp-Holt-charge&highlight=aiyana+charge

Well, then the post is should be revised. I think that a trooper without any weapon to charge is cannot able to choose to charge by this post.... If it isn't, then you are right.

Else, if I am not understand it correctly, please correct me. :(

dinnar
06-09-2015, 05:53 AM
With Aiyana its a different story: She has to make an action to cast a spell so if she gets an charge (or run) order there is no way she could ever cast a spell.

But here we're talking about models that can cast a spell before deciding what option to chose when getting an charge order. After i cast a spell both options (run/charge) are equally illegal. Maybe you can even chose the run option, so you can advance before ending your activation. (So Case 1 could also be right).

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-09-2015, 05:59 AM
I think that the post about Aiyana can be a correct reference. If a model that does not have any weapon to charge cannot choose to charge, then it cannot choose to charge and have to run, regardless the model is a Spellcaster or having Magic Ability ability. If so, then a trooper with Spellcaster cannot choose to charge, cast a spell and forfeits its movement and actions.

vintersbastard
06-09-2015, 08:11 AM
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?101136-Aiyana-amp-Holt-charge&highlight=aiyana+charge

Well, then the post is should be revised. I think that a trooper without any weapon to charge is cannot able to choose to charge by this post.... If it isn't, then you are right.
Not only is the ruling from Valander more current, it also comes with a succinct explanation (read this post (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?174698-Warcaster-Unit-Question&p=2245663&viewfull=1#post2245663) very closely).
The reason that Aiyanna doesn't get to cast spells is that she will have to forfeit her action either way (and the thread is question specifically asked about her casting spells); if she was just trying to avoid moving (due to the Old Witch's feat, for example) following the charge order would still be valid.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-09-2015, 08:21 AM
Not only is the ruling from Valander more current, it also comes with a succinct explanation (read this post (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?174698-Warcaster-Unit-Question&p=2245663&viewfull=1#post2245663) very closely).
The reason that Aiyanna doesn't get to cast spells is that she will have to forfeit her action either way (and the thread is question specifically asked about her casting spells); if she was just trying to avoid moving (due to the Old Witch's feat, for example) following the charge order would still be valid.

No... the point is, can a model with no vaild weapon to charge able choose to charge when receive charge order or it have to choose run order. Aiyana can cast a spell by using Magic Ability so it is sure that she can't cast any spells when she choose either charge or run, so it is not the problem. Only after this problem is resolved we may found out how it does by checking the post you are quoted.

https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?101136-Aiyana-amp-Holt-charge&highlight=aiyana+charge

So, is the post just refer that Aiyana cannot make charge, or it says that Aiyana can't even choose to charge for she lacks any weapon to charge and overrides the normal charge rules?

vintersbastard
06-09-2015, 11:35 AM
No... the point is, can a model with no vaild weapon to charge able choose to charge when receive charge order or it have to choose run order.

We've told you repeatedly to read Valander's post from 2013 (the Aiyanna thread is from 2012), which answers that; since you're apparently not following links, I'll even quote it:

If the leader cannot charge and issues a charge order, then it can cast spells, then pick charge and follow "cannot charge" rules.Note that lacking a melee range means a model cannot charge. This therefore falls under the purview of this ruling.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
06-09-2015, 11:57 AM
We've told you repeatedly to read Valander's post from 2013 (the Aiyanna thread is from 2012), which answers that; since you're apparently not following links, I'll even quote it:
Note that lacking a melee range means a model cannot charge. This therefore falls under the purview of this ruling.
Oops. Sorry, I wasn't catch that. Thanks for the correction.

Then indeed Haley Future can choose to charge, forfeit both movement and actions then casting the spells.