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View Full Version : Haley3, Time Walker, and RFP Effects



isaac
08-09-2015, 07:04 PM
The wording on Time Walker for Haley 3 isn't as clear as I feel I would like to see, but there are some interactions with Remove From Play (RFP) opponent effects we've been trying to parse out.

Time Walker states, when failing to upkeep one of the echoes (for whatever reason the Haley player does -- either can't or won't), to 'remove the model from play'.

It seems fairly accepted (and logical) that the Echoes come back into play whenever Haley3 desires in this method. She decides not to upkeep one due to, say, getting tagged by an Eyriss1 crossbow and being disrupted, and no longer having Focus to do so. If she survives the next turn of hers and the opponent's, she'll attempt to resummon them should she have Focus. This seems like a logical and consistent interaction.

When an opponent's model with an RFP effect interacts with a Haley3 echo, what is the result?

Easy example straight from Reckoning is Anson Durst. Should Durst make it to melee with Haley Past, for instance, and Box the model with Recompense (very likely to happen should he make it to melee), Haley Past should erupt into an Ash Cloud the moment she reaches 'Boxed', and then be removed from play.

Is Haley3 still able to resummon Haley Past even thought Durst RFPed her? Does Haley Past leave an Ash Cloud, like any other opponent model boxed by Durst in melee? This same question applies to any other RFP effect -- Crevasse, Hellmouth, Reznik2's feat, et al.

Bonus Question: If Durst kills one of the twins (who is out of Fury for transfers for whatever reason - perhaps an Eyriss2 bolt to the head or poor Fury management) of the Legion Warlock unit "Saeryn and Rhyas, Talons of Everblight" in melee and then the remaining twin feats the next turn, is she out of luck and unable to return her sister to the board, or is Durst thwarted in his attempt to stymie their feat?

My argument has always been that, due to precedent with Thagrosh1's feat, if a player RFPs an opponent's model, there's no way for them to put it back on the board, even with a feat.

Mod_Neldar
08-09-2015, 07:12 PM
Haley3 is not returning her echoes to play. She creates new ones each time.

In the case of the Talons and Haley3 with Durst RFP happens at boxed and the cloud is created. The Talons feat is essentially disabled because it tries to return the sister to play. Haley3's echo is RFP'd and clouded as well, but because her ability says "add" it is a whole new echo she summons and so the RFP of the old echo doesn't stop it.

RuneGrey
08-09-2015, 07:21 PM
Haley3 explicitly summons a new instance of her echoes each time that they come into play. The keyword here is that she adds a model to the unit, rather than replacing them as most recursion effects are aught to do. If not for the restrictions on her card about not summoning a model in play, she could continue to add echoes to the unit for as long as her focus held out. This is notably the same mechanic as Tartarus or other models which can create new members of a unit that were not present at deployment, such as Necrosurgeons and the like. No existing model is being returned from destruction, so removed from play does not effect the echo at all.

isaac
08-09-2015, 07:21 PM
Haley3 is not returning her echoes to play. She creates new ones each time.

In the case of the Talons and Haley3 with Durst RFP happens at boxed and the cloud is created. The Talons feat is essentially disabled because it tries to return the sister to play. Haley3's echo is RFP'd and clouded as well, but because her ability says "add" it is a whole new echo she summons and so the RFP of the old echo doesn't stop it.

I only ask this to understand the rules interaction, in case of future release like this, and just general curiousity --

How does adding a model to a unit circumvent the FA:C of the individual models in the unit and that the old one was RFPed?

I thoroughly get how BLT, for instance, keeps popping out new banes (because Cryx and MOAR BANES), because he's not creating new characters that are specifically restricted in the amount that can be placed upon the board.

As another example, would that mean that, should Durst be fighting Zaal1 and Skorne and a Zealot's bomb blows up an Ancestral Guardian, spawning a Kovaas. If Durst kills the Kovaas with Recompense, RFPing the Kovaas, and then another model in the Menoth army destroys Hakaar (or any other AG), does another Kovaas spawn or is Zaal1 out of luck?

Leonard_Dukes
08-09-2015, 07:43 PM
How does adding a model to a unit circumvent the FA:C of the individual models in the unit and that the old one was RFPed?



Field Allowance only restricts how many of a given model/unit can be included in an army at the time of the army's creation.

Abilities and effects that add models/units to play can cause the model count to exceed FA (e.g. Incubus solos on Kallus' feat turn, Servitor solos put into play by the Prime Axiom, etc).

SageofLodoss
08-09-2015, 09:18 PM
To answer your Kovaas question: if you remove a Kovaas from play and destroy an Ancestral Guardian later on, Zaal1 will create a new Kovaas. He's creating a new Kovaas and simply limited to only having one in play at a time, but he is not returning the same Kovaas to play.

Your confusion is likely derived from a tendency to connect the physical model representing the character and the character in the actual game. Just because the physical model was removed with an RFP effect doesn't mean that model can't be used in the game. RFP means that model can't be "returned" to the game, such as with Asphyxious2's feat, Morvahna2's feat, etc. Any ability which creates new models, such as Zaal1's Kovaas, Haley3's echoes, the Necrosurgeon making new Mechanithralls, etc. will not be stopped by RFP effects.

Xeurian
08-10-2015, 07:41 AM
Just a couple of clarifications...


getting tagged by an Eyriss1 crossbow and being disrupted, and no longer having Focus to do so.

Eiryss1 does not cause "Disruption" to anything but Warjacks with her Disruptor Bolt. You are correct that they would lose Focus though.


Bonus Question: If Durst kills one of the twins (who is out of Fury for transfers for whatever reason - perhaps an Eyriss2 bolt to the head or poor Fury management)

Eiryss2 does not remove Fury through Arcane Interference, only Focus. Eiryss3 is the only Eiryss which removes Fury AND Focus from her target.

OniBeowulf
08-10-2015, 08:55 AM
Disregard.

AcidOverride
08-10-2015, 01:32 PM
Xeurian; while correct that Eiryss1 does not cause disruption to the caster she hits with her Disruptor Bolt, that caster does not replenish focus the next turn and thus would be unable to upkeep Haley Past or Haley Future.

Xeurian
08-10-2015, 01:45 PM
Xeurian; while correct that Eiryss1 does not cause disruption to the caster she hits with her Disruptor Bolt, that caster does not replenish focus the next turn and thus would be unable to upkeep Haley Past or Haley Future.

That is correct. I did not dispute that, though I see I did not re-iterate that part either.