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View Full Version : Hoarluk Doomshaper3's Unminding vs Flesh Meld



Leonard_Dukes
10-07-2015, 08:47 PM
Unminding - Target enemy warbeast suffers -2 FURY and THR and loses its animus. This model can cast an affected warbeast's animus as a spell as if the animus belonged to a warbeast in this model's battlegroup and in its control area.


Flesh Meld - Belphagor becomes a warlock warrior model [...] and its base FURY becomes 7. [...] While melded, Belphagor [...] is not considered to be a warbeast, and loses its animus.

Doomshaper3 casts Unminding on Belphagor, and on the Legion player's next turn Bethayne uses Flesh Meld.

The "Target enemy warbeast" restriction only matters for targeting purposes, so the spell remains in play on Belphagor.

1. Does the warlock-Belphagor suffer -2 FURY? As written, I believe that it does, since there is no distinction between a warlock's FURY stat and a warbeast's FURY stat, aside from how they're used by each type of model.

2. Is the phrase "an affected warbeast" treated the same as "target enemy warbeast" in that it's only really considered when the spell is cast, or does the fact that Belphagor is no longer a warbeast mean that Doomshaper3 cannot cast its animus?

solkan
10-07-2015, 09:28 PM
You forgot to ask what effect a THR modifier of -2 has on a model which no longer has the attribute. :p

Honestly, the simplest solution would be words to the effect: Warbeast specific effects are no longer valid when the model in question stops being a warbeast.

But, as far as trying to use the animus, Belphagore does not have animus to be used through Unbinding when it is subject to both Fleshmeld and Unbinding at the same time. See your thread concerning a model losing its animus.

Leonard_Dukes
10-07-2015, 09:34 PM
You forgot to ask what effect a THR modifier of -2 has on a model which no longer has the attribute. :p

Nah, I just swept that under the #JustBethayneThings rug.


Honestly, the simplest solution would be words to the effect: Warbeast specific effects are no longer valid when the model in question stops being a warbeast.

Is this in answer to the -2 FURY portion of the question? Because I don't think that "target enemy warbeast" makes it "warbeast specific" any more than "target Faction model" makes a spell "Faction specific" after the point in time when it's put into play (example (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?212681-Targeting-Restrictions-and-Upkeeping-Spells&p=2857021&viewfull=1#post2857021)).


But, as far as trying to use the animus, Belphagore does not have animus to be used through Unbinding when it is subject to both Fleshmeld and Unbinding at the same time. See your thread concerning a model losing its animus.

What is it about Belphagor's "this model loses its animus" that keeps Doomshaper3 from using it that's different about "that model loses its animus" as applied by Unminding? That is, what allows Doomshaper3 to ignore the "lost animus" as applied by his spell, versus a "lost animus" as applied by some other ability?

SeoNN
10-08-2015, 05:17 AM
As for me @Leonard_Dukes right about -2 FURY
However abot animus Umnimding says "This model can cast an affected warbeast's animus as a spell" but Belph is no more warbeast so "affected warbeast" whos animus we could cast is no more exists.

DarkLegacy
10-08-2015, 05:19 AM
Belphagor while melded with Bethayne is -2 FURY. She would be FURY 5 while Unminding is on Belphagor.

Belphagor's animus disappears from Flesh Meld, Unminding cannot use it while Belphagor is in a Meld. This statement is incorrect, please see post #13.

SeoNN
10-08-2015, 05:21 AM
Thanks for confirm

Charger
10-08-2015, 10:31 AM
So..Can Hoarlock Fleshmeld with Belphagor under these circumstance?

DarkLegacy
10-08-2015, 10:43 AM
So..Can Hoarlock Fleshmeld with Belphagor under these circumstance?
What exactly would give you that idea? Does Belphagor have Flesh Meld? Does Hoarluk?

Leonard_Dukes
10-08-2015, 12:40 PM
Belphagor's animus disappears from Flesh Meld, Unminding cannot use it while Belphagor is in a Meld.

This is part of what I'm having trouble following.

When cast on a typical warbeast, Unminding's "This model can use the affected warbeast's animus [...]" ignores the previous "the affected warbeast loses its animus" which, as others have pointed out (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?161746-Runebreaker-question&p=2051764&viewfull=1#post2051764), normally means that the animus is unavailable for other models to use.

The text of Unminding doesn't seem to include any text that describes a specific interaction with the rules for a "lost" animus (though there don't seem to be any hard rules for that other than the linked thread), so why does Unminding allow Doomshaper3 to use a lost animus while other abilities like Primal Magic don't?

DarkLegacy
10-08-2015, 12:47 PM
This is part of what I'm having trouble following.

When cast on a typical warbeast, Unminding's "This model can use the affected warbeast's animus [...]" ignores the previous "the affected warbeast loses its animus" which, as others have pointed out (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?161746-Runebreaker-question&p=2051764&viewfull=1#post2051764), normally means that the animus is unavailable for other models to use.

The text of Unminding doesn't seem to include any text that describes a specific interaction with the rules for a "lost" animus (though there don't seem to be any hard rules for that other than the linked thread), so why does Unminding allow Doomshaper3 to use a lost animus while other abilities like Primal Magic don't?
The second sentence of the spell gives Doomshaper a "fake-beast" with the animus of the model affected by the spell in his control area to cast.

Leonard_Dukes
10-08-2015, 01:01 PM
The second sentence of the spell gives Doomshaper a "fake-beast" with the animus of the model affected by the spell in his control area to cast.

But the affected warbeast doesn't have an animus, as stated in the previous sentence. I guess I just don't see the difference between:

A. Some effect (Flesh Meld, Sunder Spirit, etc) causes a warbeast to lose its animus. Doomshaper3 casts Unminding on it, but can't use its animus because it doesn't have one.

and

B. Doomshaper3 casts Unminding on a warbeast and causes it to lose its animus. He can use its animus...despite it not having one.

DarkLegacy
10-08-2015, 01:14 PM
But the affected warbeast doesn't have an animus, as stated in the previous sentence. I guess I just don't see the difference between:

A. Some effect (Flesh Meld, Sunder Spirit, etc) causes a warbeast to lose its animus. Doomshaper3 casts Unminding on it, but can't use its animus because it doesn't have one.

and

B. Doomshaper3 casts Unminding on a warbeast and causes it to lose its animus. He can use its animus...despite it not having one.
I'll check. Before you ask, I'm asking about every instance of "loses its animus" as well.

DarkLegacy
10-14-2015, 09:59 AM
Belphagor's animus disappears from Flesh Meld, Unminding cannot use it while Belphagor is in a Meld.
The statement above has been corrected in that post. What follows below is how it works.

It doesn't matter how the animus is lost. If, for example, Mulg has Runebreaker up and Hoarluk3 targeted a warbeast within that effect, Hoarluk3 would be able to cast the animus of the beast.

The second sentence of Unminding gives you a fake-warbeast in your control area with the exact animus that exists on the card of the warbeast that has Unminding on it.

Leonard_Dukes
10-14-2015, 10:53 AM
The second sentence of Unminding gives you a fake-warbeast in your control area with the exact animus that exists on the card of the warbeast that has Unminding on it.

I guess this is the part that's throwing me.

Does this mean that another model with an animus-sharing ability (e.g. Spirit Tap, Primal Magic) can use the "lost" animus of a warbeast affected by such an ability (e.g. Unminding, Sunder Spirit) since the ability is referencing the animus that exists on the card of the affected model, and it's effectively giving the model a "fake animus" entry on its own card?

Also, I guess my original question is still sort of unanswered: does the text "the affected warbeast's animus" care that a Flesh Melded Belphagor is no longer a warbeast? I know the "target enemy warbeast" doesn't matter anymore, but I'm not sure if this "affected warbeast" clause is treated similarly to the ignored targeting restriction.

SeoNN
10-14-2015, 03:54 PM
Also, I guess my original question is still sort of unanswered: does the text "the affected warbeast's animus" care that a Flesh Melded Belphagor is no longer a warbeast? I know the "target enemy warbeast" doesn't matter anymore, but I'm not sure if this "affected warbeast" clause is treated similarly to the ignored targeting restriction.

As for me its just same with "Death Ward" spell. (eScarre has f.e.) . It could targeted on any friendly Faction, but the second sentence have sence only while affected model is warjack. Same with Unminding IMHO. Sentence about animus have sence only while affected model is warbeast, but -2 FURY/THR works allways if u maneged somehow to put it on non-warbeast model with FURY/THR stat

So Doomy still can't use animus and his Fake-beast disapears.

DarkLegacy
10-18-2015, 06:06 PM
I guess this is the part that's throwing me.

Does this mean that another model with an animus-sharing ability (e.g. Spirit Tap, Primal Magic) can use the "lost" animus of a warbeast affected by such an ability (e.g. Unminding, Sunder Spirit) since the ability is referencing the animus that exists on the card of the affected model, and it's effectively giving the model a "fake animus" entry on its own card?

Also, I guess my original question is still sort of unanswered: does the text "the affected warbeast's animus" care that a Flesh Melded Belphagor is no longer a warbeast? I know the "target enemy warbeast" doesn't matter anymore, but I'm not sure if this "affected warbeast" clause is treated similarly to the ignored targeting restriction.
If Bethayne Flesh Melds in after Unminding has been cast on Belphagor, Hoarluk3 will still have the animus as long as the spell is upkeep paid.

Leonard_Dukes
10-18-2015, 06:24 PM
If Bethayne Flesh Melds in after Unminding has been cast on Belphagor, Hoarluk3 will still have the animus as long as the spell is upkeep paid.

Thanks for the followup.