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netdragon
10-16-2015, 12:32 PM
Hi!

I been using my search-fu but I cannot find anything regarding these type of templates and their point of origin.

I was playing against Khador and their pikemen's Shield Wall brought some confusion whether their ARM bonus was applied or not when entering these templates or ending their movement over one.

I came up with this rule on page 64 of prime:


For most attacks, the origin of damage will be the same as the point of origin of the attack. The origin of damage for a direct hit with an AOE attack is the attackā€™s point of origin, but the origin of damage for any other damage caused by an AOE attack is the point of impact.

Thing is, these effects are not AEO attacks, I think they are not even attacks.

Any help? are these treated as Siege's Ground Pounder?

thanks!

juckto
10-16-2015, 12:56 PM
They are not attacks. Shield wall etc doesn't apply.

netdragon
10-16-2015, 01:05 PM
They are not attacks. Shield wall etc doesn't apply.

Pretty sure it could, Shield wall doesn't "activate" when being attacked, it's "on" whenever the affected model is B2B with another model in the unit.

hellsfury
10-16-2015, 01:13 PM
Not 100% sure but id go with if the are base to base under shield wall when they enter covering fire they will have the +4 about bonus

xenwall
10-16-2015, 01:17 PM
So long as you remember that models move individually and by extension, no one model can move and retain its shield wall bonus, if you are B2B with another member of the unit at the moment that you enter the effect then you WOULD gain the bonus. That being said, that's practically impossible to set up. You can definitely end your activation inside the effect and still benefit from the ARM bonus though.

netdragon
10-16-2015, 01:21 PM
Guys,

I'm not asking about the movement, that is another thread. I'm asking about the point of origin of the effect, as if the Pikemen didn't move and ended their movement inside the template. Does the damage come from the center of the template or from the unit placing the template (as in ground pounder)?

thanks!

(and please don't guess)

Leonard_Dukes
10-16-2015, 01:45 PM
Guys,

I'm not asking about the movement, that is another thread. I'm asking about the point of origin of the effect, as if the Pikemen didn't move and ended their movement inside the template. Does the damage come from the center of the template or from the unit placing the template (as in ground pounder)?

thanks!

(and please don't guess)


From a locked thread, (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?116656-Question-regarding-the-origin-of-damage-of-pKrueger-s-feat-Storm-Ravager) indicating a correct response: Damage suffered from an AOE that does not directly hit the model in question - whether the AOE is generated by an attack or by some other effect - is treated as originating from the center of the AOE template causing the damage.

That being said, be careful to determine when that damage is suffered. As in your original post, if a model enters such an AOE, the damage is typically going to originate from within its front arc (assuming it's advancing into the AOE). There are, of course, instances, where a model might suffer such damage and the center of the AOE is in the back arc when that damage is suffered.

netdragon
10-16-2015, 01:53 PM
Thanks! I already got into the whole thing about entering the area while maintaining B2B (which I understand is only possible if models are able to move over each other), I just wanted to know the proper point of origin.

netdragon
10-16-2015, 01:56 PM
From a locked thread, (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?116656-Question-regarding-the-origin-of-damage-of-pKrueger-s-feat-Storm-Ravager) indicating a correct response: Damage suffered from an AOE that does not directly hit the model in question - whether the AOE is generated by an attack or by some other effect - is treated as originating from the center of the AOE template causing the damage.

I'm sorry, but I see in that thread that the answer is:

That applies only to AOE attacks (cf. Prime, p. 59).

Damage rolls come from Krueger.

Leonard_Dukes
10-16-2015, 02:04 PM
I'm sorry, but I see in that thread that the answer is:

Ugh, this is what I get for skimming when sleepy.

Okay, so for non-attack AOEs: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?189766-Shield-Wall-and-taking-a-Damage-roll&p=2477238&viewfull=1#post2477238

If it's not an attack, it doesn't follow the "use the center point of the template" rule for attack AOEs and instead uses the model that put the effect into play.

It still seems like I've seen more recent rulings that all AOEs use the center of the template (except for the model directly hit) as the point of origin, but unless/until I can find such a ruling, I guess go with the linked thread above.

netdragon
10-16-2015, 02:16 PM
Cool. I guess it confirms the rule I quoted at the beginning. Awesome!

Reynard-Miri
10-16-2015, 02:18 PM
Pretty sure it could, Shield wall doesn't "activate" when being attacked, it's "on" whenever the affected model is B2B with another model in the unit.
It also requires that the point of origin be in the front arc. If there is no point of origin (like continuous fire, though that's a bad example for Shield Wall), then it doesn't apply. I'm not positive about this next part, but I think that only attacks have points of origin.

netdragon
10-16-2015, 02:24 PM
It also requires that the point of origin be in the front arc. If there is no point of origin (like continuous fire, though that's a bad example for Shield Wall), then it doesn't apply. I'm not positive about this next part, but I think that only attacks have points of origin.

But it does have a point of origin, see the posts above!

ShockwaveIIC
10-16-2015, 02:24 PM
When advancing, you are ALWAYS moving forward, therefore the damage from said AOE's would never be in the back arc, when entering them......

(Back arc being the only time the +4 Shield Wall bonus doesn't count, when in BtB)

netdragon
10-16-2015, 02:25 PM
When advancing, you are ALWAYS moving forward, therefore the damage from said AOE's would never be in the back arc, when entering them......

But if I place it behind the model and it doesn't move...

netdragon
10-16-2015, 02:26 PM
Anyway, I got my answer. Thanks!

ShockwaveIIC
10-16-2015, 02:27 PM
But it does have a point of origin, see the posts above!I've just read Covering Fire on the Cyclone and Stormwall.

Stormwall mentions "Centre point" not point of origin.

netdragon
10-17-2015, 05:16 AM
I've just read Covering Fire on the Cyclone and Stormwall.

Stormwall mentions "Centre point" not point of origin.

It mentions that its centre must be within LOS of the jack for placement, I'm discussing point of origin of the damage here. Different things.