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Tsenzei
05-28-2010, 02:31 AM
This is a multi-part question. I only have the Hordes MKII PDFs, I do not currently have the Warmachine MKII official rule book, which may clarify the answer.

My question pertains to abilities, such as Morvahna's Sacrifical Pawn, and Cyclops Brute's Shield Guard.


Shield Guard: Once per round, when a friendly model is directly hit by a ranged attack during your opponentʼs turn while within
2˝ of this model, this model can become the target of the attack and be automatically hit instead. This model cannot use Shield
Guard if it is incorporeal, knocked down, or stationary.
Morvahna's Sacrificial Pawn: When this model is directly hit by an enemy ranged attack, you can choose to have one
friendly, non-incorporeal Faction warrior model within 3˝ of this model directly hit instead. That model is automatically hit and
suffers all damage and effects.In both cases, it causes an attack (which may or may not have automatically hit) to automatically hit (albeit a different target).

My first question, is if in the event that the original hit was a "Critical Hit" is the new "Automatic Hit" is also considered a "Critical Hit"?

My follow up question, regardless of the answer to the first question, if the attack had a "Critical Effect" does that affect a Model using "Shield Guard"?

Second follow up is the same except for a Model hit because of Sacrificial Pawn (which specificies that they suffer all effects).

Silverpuppy's follow-up question: Presuming the Automatic Hit is not a Critical Hit, and the attacker opts to roll in an attempt to get a Critical Hit rather than accept the Automatic Hit, is this considered a "Re-roll" or a new attack?

My own followup to that: In the case of Shield Guard, or a Ranged Direct Hit interaction with Sacrificial Pawn: If the opponent opts, for any reason, to roll to hit rather than accept the Automatic Hit, and the new target is out of range, does the attack Automatically Miss?

Thank you, and I apologize if this was already answered, I did not find it searching.

NmoLvr
05-28-2010, 04:59 AM
Just imagine that the model with shield guard is jumping in front of their buddy at the last minute to take the bullet for them.

You must roll to hit the original target. This is a completely normal attack, and any modifiers to the attack take place at that time.

If the attack hits the originally targetted model, then the model with shield guard can 'jump in front' and take the shot. The shot will hit them instead of the original model you rolled to hit. All damage/effects/etc. go on the shield guard model instead of the originally targetted model. Critical hit, continuous effects, armor piercing, or anything else that went with the original shot are now applied to the shield guard model.

I'm not familiar with Sacrificial Pawn, so I'll leave that for someone else.

Caeldan
05-28-2010, 09:33 AM
The description for sacrificial pawn actually states all effects are transferred.

Here's a question though, because sacrificial pawn says 'instead' does that keep the type of attack a ranged attack... Meaning you could then pass it off to another model with shield guard?

rydiafan
05-28-2010, 09:35 AM
An Infernal ruled that a Necrosurgeon could not use Sacrificial Pawn after receiving an attack from Terminus using Sacrificial Pawn.

Dino-Czar
05-28-2010, 09:39 AM
Just imagine that the model with shield guard is jumping in front of their buddy at the last minute to take the bullet for them.

You must roll to hit the original target. This is a completely normal attack, and any modifiers to the attack take place at that time.

If the attack hits the originally targetted model, then the model with shield guard can 'jump in front' and take the shot. The shot will hit them instead of the original model you rolled to hit. All damage/effects/etc. go on the shield guard model instead of the originally targetted model. Critical hit, continuous effects, armor piercing, or anything else that went with the original shot are now applied to the shield guard model.

I'm not familiar with Sacrificial Pawn, so I'll leave that for someone else.

You have a lot of fluff there, but can you back any of that up with a page quote?

All I can find is the rule about critical effects needing a roll. You can choose to forgo automatic hits (the wording on shield guard is automatically hit, the same as a melee attack against a knocked down model) and try for a critical, but you cannot crit without rolling.

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 10:17 AM
My first question, is if in the event that the original hit was a "Critical Hit" is the new "Automatic Hit" is also considered a "Critical Hit"?

to answer this one, the model that is hit as a result of shield guard and or sac pawn suffers all effects of the roll on the original target. the auto hit is there so that the attack does not need to reroll the attack. it is still a critical hit as that was an effect of the first shot on the original target.

My follow up question, regardless of the answer to the first question, if the attack had a "Critical Effect" does that affect a Model using "Shield Guard"?

in short yes,(althought i cannot quote any pages) my guess is that it is the same as sac pawn with the exception that the model is not"destroyed" from the attack. atleast without rolling to kill the shield guard model.

this seems another rule that would be "implied" that since the critical happend and the other model is directly hit by using the ability all effects would then transfer accordingly.

Dino-Czar
05-28-2010, 10:22 AM
Except that Shield Guard doesn't mention effects carrying over, only that the model is automatically hit.

I don't like arguments from implication, but since you brought it up....

Sacrificial Pawn has clear language about effects of the hit carrying to the new target. Shield Guard does not share that language. The implication would be that effects of the (critical) hit do not carry over.

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 10:38 AM
I would agree that its an argument with intent vs written...... i would not see how a model standing in for the original target would not take all the effects of a shot (yes,yes, fluff is not rules)

not a strong leg to stand on but because the shield guard is standing in and the target is hit with the attack......it would seem to me it is loop hole to take a weaker hit and brush off a critical.

in this instance i would hope to see a ruling of "it is cause we say it is" :)

+1 to hoping that is the case.

NmoLvr
05-28-2010, 10:38 AM
Except that Shield Guard doesn't mention effects carrying over, only that the model is automatically hit.

It says the shield guard model "becomes the new target." That takes the original target completely out of the equation and changes the situation such that the shield guard model is the target of the original attack. The target itself is transferred. No effects need transferred, they effect the target which is now the shield guard model.

Dino-Czar
05-28-2010, 10:47 AM
HOW is the old target "taken out of the equation"? What rule is prompting you to think that might be the case?

The reasoning here is pretty straight forward.

IF the shield guard model is a new target
and
IF a Shield Guarding model is hit automatically
and
IF you must forgo an automatic hit and roll dice to get a critical effect
THEN
An attacker can either take a normal hit on the Shield Guarding model or re-roll the attack.

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 10:55 AM
the fact that the critical was already rolled the original target was already hit and now a forced reroll of the critical seems wonky.

the fact that a new roll must be made making the attack effectively needing to crit twice to make one effect doesnt seem correct. not to mention that poor dice could infact make a shot that hit its original target now suddenly miss the model saving the primary target from getting hit doesnt work in my mind.

rules, fluff or anyother design i would like to see an infernal ruling on this one just to set my mind at ease no matter what is correct :)

Weaselcreature
05-28-2010, 10:56 AM
I wish search was working properly. This interaction came up just a couple months ago, and I can't remember the official ruling on it (if there was one).

vintersbastard
05-28-2010, 11:24 AM
I guess you're meaning this thread (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?9250-Shield-Guard-vs.-Critical-Effects&highlight=critical*hit), but sadly, it remained unresolved.

(By the way, search seems to be working again, as of this day. That makes me a happy rules lawyer:D.)

NmoLvr
05-28-2010, 11:25 AM
HOW is the old target "taken out of the equation"? What rule is prompting you to think that might be the case?

The reasoning here is pretty straight forward.

IF the shield guard model is a new target
and
IF a Shield Guarding model is hit automatically
and
IF you must forgo an automatic hit and roll dice to get a critical effect
THEN
An attacker can either take a normal hit on the Shield Guarding model or re-roll the attack.

The rule I quoted. The shield guard model "becomes the new target." Are you suggesting the attack now has 2 targets?

The shield guard model IS the new target. Says so in the shield guard text. No 'if' involved.
The shield guard model IS automatically hit. Says so in the shield guard text. No 'if' involved.
There is no option to forgo an auto hit. The attack automatically hits, so your ranged attack has hit its target. True, this target is not the one you were aiming at, but shield guard states that you have a new target, which you have now hit. Where is the rule that say you can choose to roll again?

All anybody needs to answer this question is the "becomes the new target" part. What happens when your particular attack hits its target? Whatever is the answer to that question now happens to the shield guard model because it is the target of your attack and you hit it.

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 11:39 AM
Nmolvr the problem is auto hit doesnt allow a crit to happen, although i TOTALLY agree the crit should happen as you have already rolled it. this seems an oversight and something the rule sharks can feed on. simply put we need an infernal to rule it one way or the other to set are minds at ease.

the fact that sac pawn states the effects carry over and shield guard does not is the oversite that is being argued. albeit for the reason that a defender using the ability wants to nerf the power of a random shot actually getting the crit by forcing a reroll. (and by defender i mean ANY player myself included that is on the recieving end!)

NmoLvr
05-28-2010, 11:55 AM
Nmolvr the problem is auto hit doesnt allow a crit to happen, although i TOTALLY agree the crit should happen as you have already rolled it. this seems an oversight and something the rule sharks can feed on. simply put we need an infernal to rule it one way or the other to set are minds at ease.

the fact that sac pawn states the effects carry over and shield guard does not is the oversite that is being argued. albeit for the reason that a defender using the ability wants to nerf the power of a random shot actually getting the crit by forcing a reroll. (and by defender i mean ANY player myself included that is on the recieving end!)

I see. I suppose that is a somewhat reasonable misunderstanding, but my position remains unchanged. Lets use some common sense where the rules aren't flawless.

I'm surprised there aren't people suffocating during games because the rules don't say "You shall breath regularly while playing Warmachine." Even if they did, somebody would start an arguement over how often is 'regularly.' :)

Dino-Czar
05-28-2010, 12:30 PM
There isn't anything "rule shark" about it.

Look up the rules for an automatic hit. It's on page 61.


If a special rule causes an attack to hit automatically, you do not have to make an attack roll. If you do make a roll (because you want to try for a critical hit, for example) the attack no longer hits automatically.


Now, how can the NEW target be automatically hit and suffer a critical hit at the same time? Please, cite something. I'll settle for anything other than "I want it otherwise" at this point.

drugar101
05-28-2010, 12:31 PM
Automatic hits don't make it impossible to critically hit. it just means that you have to roll for the critical hit and since shield guard is simply changing the target of the 'original attack' which already has rolled a critical hit. Then naturally the new target is critically hit.

NmoLvr
05-28-2010, 12:45 PM
Automatic hits don't make it impossible to critically hit. it just means that you have to roll for the critical hit and since shield guard is simply changing the target of the 'original attack' which already has rolled a critical hit. Then naturally the new target is critically hit.

I know that and you know that, but the lawyers want text. Other than the part where we're supposed to use common sense, there is nothing to give them.

In my opinion (so don't tell me this isn't in the rules, I already know that) the part where shield guard says the model is automatically hit just means that when they choose to use shield guard you don't have to roll to hit them again. Whatever you just rolled to hit the first model is still in effect. Again, that is just my opinion, possibly with some common sense mixed in.

NmoLvr
05-28-2010, 12:48 PM
Dino, your quote from the rules also shows where you can choose to re-roll an auto-hit, so I was incorrect about that in general. I have learned something today!

I still suspect it goes differently in this particular situation, but I understand you're waiting on purple to believe it.

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 12:50 PM
Dino is citing properly, and it is a "loop hole" im sure most everyone would agree. and it is a "shark" because none other then the dreaded as intended and common since vs. rules as written.

im not denying that it works as dino is pointing out, because well it would seem that its the way it works..... now the other side is that is there really anyone who can say that was the "intent" without saying "im not the developer" or "we dont know what they were thinking"?!

any and everyone when they make an attack and someone where to shield guard there crit away and force them to reroll if they want to attempt to crit the new target would scream foul. and any defender of the raw will pull text from the book and grin just before the sock jack came from stage left.

a simple ruling from an infernal would really save many a bloody sock and broken mini, no matter which way it was ruled. :)

Dino-Czar
05-28-2010, 01:09 PM
I don't see how this constitutes a loop hole.

When you miss after firing into melee you make a new attack on the new target with a new set of rolls. All the modifiers change, and the results of the old roll are tossed.

The rules on automatically hitting with an attack state that you must roll if you want a critical effect.

No where in Shield Guard is there language about carrying over the effects of the original roll.


Now please, where did you get the idea that critical effects carry over to the new target? I'll grant that it isn't explicitly spelled out, but rather than needing to be told to breath during a game I get the sense that some people are trying to breath with their kidneys.

Caeldan
05-28-2010, 01:12 PM
An Infernal ruled that a Necrosurgeon could not use Sacrificial Pawn after receiving an attack from Terminus using Sacrificial Pawn.

Sorry to continue the tangent... But the difference between shield guard and pawn is that pawn wording specifies enemy attack. Guard only states a ranged attack during an enemy turn - which if pawn keeps the type of attack intact would allow for it to chain.

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 01:16 PM
Dino when you use shield guard it is activated because you HIT your target. now if that HIT was a critical, and the shield guard model is now become the target of the attack, because you have already rolled to HIT the original target and the NEW shield guard target is forced to become the new target it is expressed by the shield guard rule as automatically hit. the LOOPHOLE is that since there is nothing written like there is in sac pawn that FORCING the attacker to reroll to make the crit hit happen a SECOND time is the hang up most notably because there was a chance to miss the shot on the original target, now there is a chance to miss a shot that would have hit the original target.

do you see the issue now? reguardless of the rules!

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 01:23 PM
CAELDAN, an infernal ruled that you infact could not chain an attack.

like rydiafan said if terminus who has sac pawn sluffs an attack to a necrosurgeon that surgeon could not then sluff the attack to another model. there for no chain

Dino-Czar
05-28-2010, 01:51 PM
Dino when you use shield guard it is activated because you HIT your target. now if that HIT was a critical, and the shield guard model is now become the target of the attack, because you have already rolled to HIT the original target and the NEW shield guard target is forced to become the new target it is expressed by the shield guard rule as automatically hit. the LOOPHOLE is that since there is nothing written like there is in sac pawn that FORCING the attacker to reroll to make the crit hit happen a SECOND time is the hang up most notably because there was a chance to miss the shot on the original target, now there is a chance to miss a shot that would have hit the original target.

do you see the issue now? reguardless of the rules!

I understand that you don't like the implications of this discussion, but "reguardless[sic] of the the rules!" is an unfortunate choice of words in the rules forum. It undermines your credibility.

I also can't help but note that your example is a worst case scenario. If you get a normal hit on the original target you may then opt to try for a critical hit on the Shield Guard model.

Regardless, I think I've made my point. In the complete absence of a text based reason for critical effects from the original target to apply to the Shield Guard model I will not be applying them. I will instead follow the rules for automatic hits.

Tsenzei
05-28-2010, 02:06 PM
NmoLvr Said: "Just imagine that the model with shield guard is jumping in front of their buddy at the last minute to take the bullet for them." [truncated]

I appreciate the fluff, but I could also see it this way, fluffwise: the model with Shield Guard jumps in the way of a bullet headed directly toward its master's head, and braces for the shot it saw coming.

I've always viewed critical hits (damn you DnD) as being particularly precise, relative to normal hits, and that forms part of why it's "critical" as it is hitting "critical" organs/joints/etc. With the Shield Guard model jumping in the way, that precision could be easily lost (again, via fluff).

Until an official ruling comes out, the way I'd argue it is this: the Automatic Hit is not inherently a Critical Hit, but at least for Sacrificial Pawn (and I'd argue for Shield Guard as well, given apparent intention) any Critical Effect would still apply.

That's just my own take on it. However, there's enough doubt that an official ruling (or errata/change-at-print, if need be) would be good for clarification, especially for Shield Guard. PP has, in spite of this forums existence (or perhaps because of it) had much more clear and specific rules than other games, to the point of sounding almost repetitive at times. This is something I appreciate, and obviously the interactions I'm asking about are something I'm still quite curious about.

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 02:08 PM
im not denying your rules quotes or the as written, again im only stating my opinion and the intent of the rule and the expressed thought to an oversite of the rule citing the rule of sac pawn.

i dont see how any credibility is undermined as im not stating the rule is wrong how you have explained it. i am simply looking for comformation as im sure im not the only one who has been playing it "wrong"

this brings up another question. since there is technically only one shot fired, and lets say i boosted the to hit roll, does that mean if i so choose to roll an atempted crit that i must then boost the to hit roll again or is it already boosted considering its the same shot? secondly and tied together if i choose to not boost the to hit roll but now since i have to roll again for a chance to crit a model can i now boost that roll?

Dino-Czar
05-28-2010, 02:13 PM
Like all re-rolls it would be the same number of dice as were rolled on the original attack. Exactly like when the target changes after a miss when firing into melee.

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 02:18 PM
looking over the rules to my dismay it seems quite air tight, so no crits without rolling again against a shield walled target. :)

Tsenzei
05-28-2010, 02:21 PM
Like all re-rolls it would be the same number of dice as were rolled on the original attack. Exactly like when the target changes after a miss when firing into melee.

Except it isn't a "re-roll", it's an entirely new target, and the wording for firing into melee is not the same as either Shield Guard or Sacrificial Pawn, at least to the best of my knowledge.

Yes, here's part of the entry on Targeting in Melee, and what happens if you miss:
If the attack against the intended target misses and the target
was in range, it might hit another combatant. If the target
was not in range, the attack misses automatically and will not
potentially hit another combatant.
If the target was in range, the attacker must immediately
reroll his attack against another model in that combat.

Which does specific rerolling, Whereas neither Sacrificial Pawn nor Shield Guard use the term.

In any event, it's a fair question, so I'll add that to the list.

Another question: If the attacker opts to roll, and the new target is out of range/stealthed/etc, does the attack then Automatically Miss, since the Auto-Hit is no longer over-riding the other conditions?

Caeldan
05-28-2010, 02:23 PM
CAELDAN, an infernal ruled that you infact could not chain an attack.

like rydiafan said if terminus who has sac pawn sluffs an attack to a necrosurgeon that surgeon could not then sluff the attack to another model. there for no chain

Tried searching sacrificial pawn terminus to find that posting, but couldn't turn anything up.
What was the specific wording, because in this case - I think that we're looking at two entirely separate entities.
1. Sacrificial pawn being used twice, and the fact that it specifies an enemy ranged attack.
vs
2. Sacrificial pawn being used once against the enemy ranged attack, which is then transferred to a shield guard, which is being applied against a ranged attack during an enemy turn (assuming that the type of attack is preserved, due to the wording of 'instead').

The rules generally don't allow stacking multiple applications of the same rule, but if two different rules which have similar effects come into play - they can be cumulative.


As far as Shield Guard goes... here's my take on it.
1. Model is directly hit by an attack (critical hit, so critical effects activate)
2. New model activates shield guard and becomes target of attack.
3. New model is automatically hit (to avoid cases where the defense of new model beats the attack roll)

So the new model is automatically hit regardless of their defense. Critical effects trigger from the original model being hit, and are therefore transferred to the new target of the attack.

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 02:31 PM
caeldan- the big question for teh sac pawn shield guard chain would lay in is the ranged attack transfer by sac pawn still a "ranged attack" or is it now a damge roll resulting from the "sac pawn"?

if its still ranged i guess a chain could be worked, if its the later then it would not allow the chain.

although i see the events as you with the critical related to shield guard dino does have a point in the reading of the rules. this is why i think its an oversight and welcome an infernal comformation to the interaction of a critical vs shield guard :)

until that time dino has it right by the rules and i would have to side with him against my view of intent.

Dino-Czar
05-28-2010, 02:40 PM
If they change the wording of either Shield Guard or Automatic Hits I won't be shocked. As is I have yet to see a textual argument for critical carry over.


Tsenzei: Missed ranged attacks that target a model in melee are explicitly "re-rolled" and are explicitly new attacks against new targets. Its on page 58. If the Shield Guarding model had stealth or another auto miss condition they would indeed be missed without rolling. Take another look at page 61 for rules on forgoing an automatic hit in order to roll for a critical effect.

Kuarnix
05-28-2010, 02:41 PM
There isn't anything "rule shark" about it.

Look up the rules for an automatic hit. It's on page 61.




Now, how can the NEW target be automatically hit and suffer a critical hit at the same time? Please, cite something. I'll settle for anything other than "I want it otherwise" at this point.

I'm not sure if this quote is actually applicable. An attack roll has already been made before the rules have made it hit automatically, and it is the same attack, not a new one, that automatically hits, so only that single attack roll is called for. There is also no implication that you can even elect to make a re-roll against the, since you have already made the attack roll prior to the rules allowing you to choose. Unless we want to say that shield guards are never automatically hit because you've already made the roll.... :p

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 02:46 PM
Shield Guard: Once per round, when a friendly model is directly hit by a ranged attack during your opponentʼs turn while within
2˝ of this model, this model can become the target of the attack and be automatically hit instead. This model cannot use Shield
Guard if it is incorporeal, knocked down, or stationary

the devil is in the detail, as much as i dislike the rule as written and see the intent differently it is still a new model being targeted, and thus the basis for dinos position is pretty dang air tight :)
(ever have to kiss your bosses butt and you hate the guy......yeah this is that kind of moment :) )

Dino-Czar
05-28-2010, 02:49 PM
If it makes you feel any better I was in your position a couple days ago regarding shields and the origin of damage. After reading the rules I was forced to change my stated position.

Of course I was promptly ruled against, in favor of my first argument... Maybe you'll be as lucky?

Tsenzei
05-28-2010, 03:03 PM
If they change the wording of either Shield Guard or Automatic Hits I won't be shocked. As is I have yet to see a textual argument for critical carry over.


Tsenzei: Missed ranged attacks that target a model in melee are explicitly "re-rolled" and are explicitly new attacks against new targets. Its on page 58.

Again, I only have the PDF, and, as such, the page numbers different from Warmachine's rulebook (indeed, only going to page 56, heh).

That said... that is precisely my point, when making ranged attacks in melee, if you miss it explicitly re-rolls. Neither Shield Guard nor Sacrificial Pawn, nor the PDF version of Automatic Hits being foregone for a roll, state re-rolling.


If a special rule causes an attack to hit
automatically, you do not have to make an
attack roll. If you do make a roll (because you
want to try for a critical hit, for example),
the attack no longer hits automatically. If the
attack roll fails, the attack misses.


If the Shield Guarding model had stealth or another auto miss condition they would indeed be missed without rolling [if the Automatic Hit is not taken]. Take another look at page 61 for rules on forgoing an automatic hit in order to roll for a critical effect.Yes, I was leaning toward that. Of course, it's all fairly moot if an official ruling has Critical Hits transfer, but it's good to know regardless. I of course write this in the assumption that you meant if they forewent the Automatic Hit to go for a Critical Hit, as obviously the Shield Guard/Sac. Pawn granting an Auto Hit over-rides the Auto-Miss as long as it is in effect.

Caeldan
05-28-2010, 03:05 PM
There isn't anything "rule shark" about it.

Look up the rules for an automatic hit. It's on page 61.




Now, how can the NEW target be automatically hit and suffer a critical hit at the same time? Please, cite something. I'll settle for anything other than "I want it otherwise" at this point.

Using your above rule quote, it only states that the reason to roll would be to TRY for a critical ... Meaning a roll has not yet been made. In this case a roll already was made and it was a critical. The shield guard wording is to make sure that you dont miss your attack due to the use of shield guard[ie when the guarding target has a higher def].

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 03:32 PM
order of operations is the problem caeldan, since the shield guard happens after hitting the original target the roll is not nor can it be considered against the new target aka the shield guard model. this is the dastardly wording i soooo dislike and pray for an infernal to rule on. :(

but until then dino is still correct in his standing as far as i can see

Caeldan
05-28-2010, 09:06 PM
Regarding dinos argument.. I'll try to clarify my position better now that I have my rulebook handy. Forgive formatting or some shortcuts as I'm posting from my phone.
regarding automatic hits and foroing rolls for the critical - the wording there implies that no roll has taken place as of yet. This is due to the tense of try. In the case of shield guard, a roll has already taken place and has been found to be a critical.
also, page 68 critical effects is relevant here i believe. The requirement for double dice on the attack roll has been met as well as the attack hitting [because shield guard is only used upon a direct hit], and it specifies that it is the target model which receives the effect [which is the guarder as it retargets the attack].

silverpuppy
05-28-2010, 09:26 PM
Caeldan, I sure hope this is the case! Sure wish I wasn't stuck in a car all evening! I would love to back this up! The problem being timing vs the wording of Sheldon guard

silverpuppy
05-31-2010, 05:19 PM
Just curious as this one is still pretty two sided. Was there any conformation as the proper way to resolve this? Is it intuitive that a critical carries over? Is it a force reroll of the attacker to make the shield guarded model take a critical?

Tsenzei
05-31-2010, 05:31 PM
I haven't received any confirmation one way or another. My guess is that they are still considering it, or that it will be addressed when the official book is released.

Tsenzei
06-10-2010, 01:07 PM
In lieu of an official ruling, this is my determination, though since it is not official, people should come to an agreement with each other while playing, or listen to their TO/PG where appropriate.

Caeldan brings up an interesting point, that the attack was already rolled. However, it applies to the first "hit" (the trigger for the potential use of the ability). As such, the new "hit" is only an "automatic hit" and not a "critical hit."

In the case of Pawn Sacrifice, it specifies that the new model suffers all effects that the previous model would have suffered, therefore, it still suffers any Critical Effect it is not Immune to. Shield Guard however does not.

Both sides of the core issue (if the Critical Hit transfers to the new target) have good points, so I recommend that until an official ruling can be found, that you go with house rules and, if need be, ask your TO/PG or other respected third party to make a ruling (preferably ahead of time).

rydiafan
06-10-2010, 01:16 PM
In the case of Pawn Sacrifice, it specifies that the new model suffers all effects that the previous model would have suffered

No it doesn't. It says it "suffers all damage and effects", but does not say "that the previous model would have suffered." It is a valid reading that it simply means all damage and effects of being hit.

Tsenzei
06-10-2010, 01:19 PM
No it doesn't. It says it "suffers all damage and effects", but does not say "that the previous model would have suffered." It is a valid reading that it simply means all damage and effects of being hit.

Perhaps, but that would imply that a Shield Guard hit would never suffer any effects other than damage from an attack, and I, for one, am not prepared to make that argument.

As I said, for now, it's best to go with whatever works in your playgroup/tournaments.

EDIT: Of course, I'm also assuming that the disparity in the wording is intentional, and not simply a way to potentially save space or an oversight (which it may very well be).

rydiafan
06-10-2010, 01:22 PM
Perhaps, but that would imply that a Shield Guard hit would never suffer any effects other than damage from an attack

It implies no such thing. Effects that trigger upon hitting would be suffered, such as Disruption from Eiryss's crossbow.

Tsenzei
06-10-2010, 04:08 PM
It implies no such thing. Effects that trigger upon hitting would be suffered, such as Disruption from Eiryss's crossbow.

It's implied in the difference of the wording, as a logical extension of your interpretation. I can understand how you may disagree of course, and the difference may be lack of oversight, or for space.