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M-Seya
12-01-2015, 09:05 AM
Hi guys.
I have a one question.

When Brine use Pigheaded, can he make power attack by Pain Response?

pbtibma
12-01-2015, 01:56 PM
No you can not, Pigheaded specifies melee attack and while a power attack is a melee attack the reverse is not always true. Ie all squares are rectangles not all rectangles are squares.

Mortimer
12-01-2015, 04:23 PM
Pigheaded specifies melee attack and while a power attack is a melee attack the reverse is not always true.

I'm sure this answer is correct, but it's odd that the text for Pigheaded does not say "one normal melee attack" like pretty much everything else. Is this an oversight, a deliberate allowance of more attack types than (for example) Riposte or Blind Spot, or is the word 'normal' just redundant in all other cases?

Michael
12-01-2015, 04:53 PM
Nothing in either the base Power Attack rules nor in Pigheaded / Pain Response limit Power Attacks to the model's activation.

I see nothing preventing the "one melee attack" from Pigheaded being a power attack.

Grey Templar
12-01-2015, 04:54 PM
Power Attacks require you to be forced to perform them. I don't think Pig-headed allows forcing does it?

ScottMcd
12-01-2015, 05:06 PM
Pain response allows you to make power attacks without forcing. Not sure of the answer to the OP. Checking other rules on power attacks.

Leonard_Dukes
12-01-2015, 05:23 PM
Power Attacks are special attacks, and special attacks can only be made during a model's activation.

That being said, there are ways that Pig Headed could be triggered during Brine's activation (even before its action), so the question is still relevant.

ScottMcd
12-01-2015, 05:38 PM
Dangit. You beat me too it. For reference, power attacks are special attacks (Primal page 51). Special attacks can only be made during a model's activation (Primal page 36). No new info from what Leonard said other than page numbers. (Will teach me to eat dinner before looking something up!)

Michael
12-01-2015, 08:09 PM
Power Attacks are special attacks, and special attacks can only be made during a model's activation.

That being said, there are ways that Pig Headed could be triggered during Brine's activation (even before its action), so the question is still relevant.

Just as a thought, though: I would offer examples such as Counter-Slam, which allow models to perform Slam power attacks outside of activation.

Leonard_Dukes
12-01-2015, 08:36 PM
Just as a thought, though: I would offer examples such as Counter-Slam, which allow models to perform Slam power attacks outside of activation.

That would be an example of the rules priority clause in action, whereby "cannot" trumps "can" unless one rule specifically calls out an interaction with some other rule.

Counter Slam specifically allows for the affected model to make a Slam, this overriding the "normal" rules for special attacks outside of activation.

If Pig Headed does allow for Power Attacks at all (something that remains to be seen) it still does not specifically state that it allows a Power Attack, meaning that resolution of Pig Headed outside of that model's activation would be restricted to normal attacks only, as is the "default".

M-Seya
12-02-2015, 03:30 AM
I understand.
Power Attacks can only be made during a model's activation.
Pig Headed doesn't allow for Power Attacks at during a model's out of activation.

When Brine is destroyed by free strike during his activation, he can use Power Attacks without force by Pain response and Pig Headed.
Is it OK?

Michael
12-02-2015, 06:58 PM
That would be an example of the rules priority clause in action, whereby "cannot" trumps "can" unless one rule specifically calls out an interaction with some other rule.

Counter Slam specifically allows for the affected model to make a Slam, this overriding the "normal" rules for special attacks outside of activation.

If Pig Headed does allow for Power Attacks at all (something that remains to be seen) it still does not specifically state that it allows a Power Attack, meaning that resolution of Pig Headed outside of that model's activation would be restricted to normal attacks only, as is the "default".

I don't think "cannot trumps can" is involved here. The only part of power attacks that says "cannot" is "cannot make a power attack as its charge attack" . (We'll ignore the "cannot" targeting restrictions and similar; they're not pertinent.)

I cannot (ha!) find any specific wording in Prime that says "cannot make power attack outside of activation". That's my point.




...
When Brine is destroyed by free strike during his activation, he can use Power Attacks without force by Pain response and Pig Headed.
Is it OK?

I think we're still working on determining the answer. :)

solkan
12-02-2015, 07:08 PM
I don't think "cannot trumps can" is involved here. The only part of power attacks that says "cannot" is "cannot make a power attack as its charge attack" . (We'll ignore the "cannot" targeting restrictions and similar; they're not pertinent.)

I cannot (ha!) find any specific wording in Prime that says "cannot make power attack outside of activation". That's my point.



A warbeast must be forced to make a power attack.
That's why abilities which allow a model to make a power attack say so specifically.

Pigheaded gives Brine permission to make a melee attack, but doesn't circumvent the requirement to be forced.

Edit: Which means that someone could destroy Rorsh without causing any damage to Brine (so that Pain Response isn't satisfied) and then the attack generated by Pigheaded would not have permission to be a power attack.

Michael
12-02-2015, 07:08 PM
That's why abilities which allow a model to make a power attack say so specifically.

Pigheaded gives Brine permission to make a melee attack, but doesn't circumvent the requirement to be forced.

Pain Response does, however.

solkan
12-02-2015, 07:14 PM
Pain Response does, however.

Pain Response has its own requirements. For example, cause enough damage to destroy Rorsch without injuring Brine and you'll trigger Pigheaded without triggering Pain Response.

Additionally:

A warbeast cannot make power attacks while its Mind Aspect is crippled.

That's going to make the power attack difficult to perform as well. Since all three aspects are going to be crippled when the warbeast is disabled.

Leonard_Dukes
12-02-2015, 07:49 PM
Pain Response has its own requirements. For example, cause enough damage to destroy Rorsch without injuring Brine and you'll trigger Pigheaded without triggering Pain Response.

Additionally:


That's going to make the power attack difficult to perform as well. Since all three aspects are going to be crippled when the warbeast is disabled.

All good points, but it still doesn't fully answer the question.

It's entirely possible for Brine to have (non-crippling) damage on his spirals and for Rorsh to be destroyed or removed from play by an enemy attack, satisfying the requirements for both Pain Reponse and Pigheaded.

Further, it's possible for this to happen during Brine's activation, even before the player has chosen Brine's action.

Example:

The Minions player activates Brine and advances it some distance, ending its movement base-to-base with Rorsh. Brine ends its advance within 7" of an enemy Teraph with Counter Blast on it. The Teraph resolves Counter Blast and makes a ranged AOE 3" attack targeting Brine. Brine suffers one point of damage, but the blast damage is sufficient to disable Rorsh, who then fails the Tough roll.

Brine has been damaged, Rorsh has been destroyed by an enemy attack, and it's still Brine's activation, who has yet to even declare what action to take.


Even aside from all that, a good side question might be whether Pigheaded's clause "When making this attack [Brine] ignores the effects of lost aspects" allows Brine to make a Power Attack even with a crippled Mind.

Malkav13
12-02-2015, 07:55 PM
However Pigheaded also ignores the effects of any lost spirals.

DarkLegacy
12-03-2015, 06:35 AM
When you make your attack with Pigheaded, it is a normal melee attack, not a power attack.

M-Seya
12-03-2015, 06:45 PM
Thank you very much!:p

Michael
12-03-2015, 07:47 PM
DarkLegacy,

If I may ask -- what is the particular rationale for this answer?

DarkLegacy
12-03-2015, 09:03 PM
DarkLegacy,

If I may ask -- what is the particular rationale for this answer?
It is how the ability works. If it allowed any melee or power attack, it would state as such. As it doesn't, it only allows a normal melee strike.