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View Full Version : Leaving current position and returning using single proxy base



Queaux
12-09-2015, 10:14 AM
Is it legal to place a proxy base in order to measure an advance without moving the original model then touch the original model to complete the move to the proxy base then designate the original model as a proxy base for an advance to the original position?

Will the original model need to be lifted from the table to complete these two measurements during an advance?

Po the Barbarian
12-09-2015, 10:22 AM
I think the killer here is what part of the rules describes moving this way and makes you think it works? Proxy bases as game aids aren't part of the base rules so the judge document gives good guidance but of course doesn't mention doing this. I think you would have to describe what rule you are following while putting multiple bases down touching both and then declaring you've completed an advance. As a comparison using a proxy base for a charge is done to accurately follow the charge rules. Doing what you describe doesn't seem to to enable a more accurate, but also clearly legal implementation of the advance rules.

xenwall
12-09-2015, 10:42 AM
I just have to ask, why are you looking for awkward shortcuts to moving Molik Karn back and forth? Are you concerned with saving time on the clock? You got an infernal response, you have to move the model, it's that simple.

lobachevskii
12-09-2015, 10:43 AM
If this is in relation to the infinite Molik Karn thing (as I suspect it is) I think it runs into technical limitations. I would, for example, have no objection to someone declaring a Ride-by attack with a SPD 8 cavalry model, measuring 4" to put down a proxy base for the position where the combat action will occur, resolving the combat action, and then saying the model returns to its original position and removing the proxy base.

However, for the <1/2" shuffle you have to do with Molik Karn, I can't see any way to place the proxy base without overlapping Karn's base. I would suggest placing a proxy base under Karn's base in his position within Makeda's control area and then moving him off it and then back on to it. Technically you should really be checking that he's out of Makeda's control prior to removing the fury token and moving him back anyway.

Queaux
12-09-2015, 10:51 AM
I think the killer here is what part of the rules describes moving this way and makes you think it works? Proxy bases as game aids aren't part of the base rules so the judge document gives good guidance but of course doesn't mention doing this. I think you would have to describe what rule you are following while putting multiple bases down touching both and then declaring you've completed an advance. As a comparison using a proxy base for a charge is done to accurately follow the charge rules. Doing what you describe doesn't seem to to enable a more accurate, but also clearly legal implementation of the advance rules.

A proxy base is a more accurate way to move the original model during an advance in all cases since the measurement is repeatable; I see no reason why it would not be more accurate in this case as well. I know I use proxy bases during any advance in which I am trying to move around a model, but I guess I'm not sure the judge document covers that in the first place. Brian White used proxy bases during his advance during his WMW assassination run in the finals; it is clearly a well used practice even if it is not in the judge document.

In this cases, the only real question to me is whether the original model actually needs to be lifted from the table in order to complete the first part of the advance.

Grundza
12-09-2015, 10:52 AM
If this is in relation to the infinite Molik Karn thing (as I suspect it is) I think it runs into technical limitations. I would, for example, have no objection to someone declaring a Ride-by attack with a SPD 8 cavalry model, measuring 4" to put down a proxy base for the position where the combat action will occur, resolving the combat action, and then saying the model returns to its original position and removing the proxy base.

This is how I have done ride by attacks usually as the big cav models, long pointy spears and general finickyness of them just slows things down.

juckto
12-09-2015, 11:30 AM
Is it "legal" to use proxy bases? No, nothing in the rules talks about proxy bases.

Is it "acceptable" to use proxy bases? Yes, if it incrrases accuracy.

Does using a proxy base for a 0.5" advance increase accuracy? No, because the bases will be physically overlapping.

----

If you are my opponent, and are trying to use the infinite Molik Karn to kill my Colossal/etc, then I will make you move the model accurately and remeasure control area every damn time and you can eat the time penalty.

Zephyr4213
12-09-2015, 11:35 AM
Is it "legal" to use proxy bases? No, nothing in the rules talks about proxy bases.

Is it "acceptable" to use proxy bases? Yes, if it incrrases accuracy.

Does using a proxy base for a 0.5" advance increase accuracy? No, because the bases will be physically overlapping.

----

If you are my opponent, and are trying to use the infinite Molik Karn to kill my Colossal/etc, then I will make you move the model accurately every damn time and you can eat the time penalty.


I tend to agree with this statement. If you are doing a ride-by attack and want to use a proxy base for your combat action (as long as you are returning to your original position) and you measure it precisely so we're both happy with it, I don't much care. If you are moving as part of something like Beat Back, Side Step, or Overtake (Unless your model can't physically fit), move the model, please. And if you're going to attack me infinitely, I'm going to not only make you roll each attack and the damage associated with it (No "This happens infinitely so lets just kill your dude now") but I'm also going to ask you to perform the movement.

DarkLegacy
12-09-2015, 11:40 AM
If you are attempting to ask if it is within the rules to shortcut a model's movement or attack/damage rolls, no it is not.

Queaux
12-09-2015, 01:35 PM
If you are attempting to ask if it is within the rules to shortcut a model's movement or attack/damage rolls, no it is not.

I am not asking that. I am asking for the minimum required actions needed to execute a movement from one position back to that same position. Clearly, that will depend on the TO of whatever tournament I am going to, but I would like to have some guidance for the TO on record so that I can attempt to play the same game wherever I go.

DarkLegacy
12-09-2015, 01:41 PM
I am not asking that. I am asking for the minimum required actions needed to execute a movement from one position back to that same position. Clearly, that will depend on the TO of whatever tournament I am going to, but I would like to have some guidance for the TO on record so that I can attempt to play the same game wherever I go.
You must make the full movement, every time. The minimum is fully what the rule book says. You move to the first part of your movement, move to the location, turn to your new line of movement, then continue your movement, until you are out of movement. You will need to rotate facing after the movement to keep the facing you wish to have.

Queaux
12-09-2015, 02:09 PM
I think my initial question may have been unclear. I would like to ask about the legal use of proxy bases as referenced by page 3 of the judge document. Is it legal to use multiple proxy bases to specify a path for a model to assist with movement?

Let me know if I should make another thread to ask that question instead.

DarkLegacy
12-09-2015, 02:12 PM
I think my initial question may have been unclear. I would like to ask about the legal use of proxy bases as referenced by page 3 of the judge document. Is it legal to use multiple proxy bases to specify a path for a model to assist with movement?

Let me know if I should make another thread to ask that question instead.
Are you trying to put multiple proxy bases down to simplify movement back and forth from Beat Back?

Queaux
12-09-2015, 02:16 PM
Are you trying to put multiple proxy bases down to simplify movement back and forth from Beat Back?

Beat Back and Ride by attack

DarkLegacy
12-09-2015, 02:29 PM
Beat Back and Ride by attack
Are the proxy bases overlapping other bases?

Queaux
12-09-2015, 02:39 PM
Are the proxy bases overlapping other bases?

No they are not

DarkLegacy
12-09-2015, 06:59 PM
If the bases aren't overlapping, follow the rules in the Judge document. You can't leave the model, treat the proxy as your placement, and then move back to the place the model is resting due to you not following what the Judge document recommends.

EnglshGentleman
12-09-2015, 09:11 PM
This is how I have done ride by attacks usually as the big cav models, long pointy spears and general finickyness of them just slows things down.

I think I'd only let an opponent leave a proxy-base even after they move to return back to is only if they agree they are committed to moving back to that spot (even if it causes free strikes or end of movement effects). There is a lot of information that can be gained by being able to see a models (potential) position in game state. It is much easier to judge distances between bases than distances between a base and an empty spot where something may be. You could do you ride-by attack, then realize that your base will be blocking X model, or be in threat of X model, or going to proc X effect and then want to change your movement. I think it is sort of similar to how you don't typically allow an opponent to fan their tape measure before moving a model. Doing so could make them realize they aren't going to quite make it where they want to go, and so they then move somewhere else.

Queaux
12-09-2015, 09:19 PM
Thanks for the answer.