PDA

View Full Version : Incorporeal and Force Lock



Kisaragi
01-02-2016, 10:56 PM
Are incorporeal models (ala Feralgeists or Skorne Immortals+UA) affected by Force Lock (from Janissa or all those Rune Bearers around her), given that Force Lock is not on the weapon, is not a magic attack, animi, spell or feat?

Postin Dirty
01-02-2016, 11:05 PM
Nothing in the incorporeal rules prevents it from affected by stuff like forcelock

Kisaragi
01-02-2016, 11:28 PM
Nothing in the incorporeal rules prevents it from affected by stuff like forcelock

Well it does if "Force Lock" is an effect since Incorporeal says: "This model suffers damage and effects only from magical weapons, magic attacks, animi, spells, and feats and is immune to continuous effects." Unless it does fit into one of those categories, I didn't think it should be effected. But if they are affected then why?

Stormpuppy_Infantry
01-02-2016, 11:30 PM
Nothing in the incorporeal rules prevents it from affected by stuff like forcelock


This model suffers damage and effects only from magical weapons, magic attacks, animi, spells and feats and is immune to continous effects.

Not really, unless the Infernal says otherwise.

Morgan Coalburn
01-03-2016, 09:14 AM
Because force lock is a mechanikal (or arcanikal) effect and they count as magical? I'm arguing fluffily here, of course.

Michael
01-03-2016, 09:20 AM
Because force lock is a mechanikal (or arcanikal) effect and they count as magical? I'm arguing fluffily here, of course.
Fluff does not equal rules. :p

Unless Force Lock happened to be on a weapon with the Magical Weapon quality, then no, it would not affect Incorporeal models. (Being listed on a model that has a magic weapon isn't sufficient. The effect needs to be on the weapon itself.)

Patriots40001
01-03-2016, 03:44 PM
Force lock says enemy models in this models melee range can not advance except to change their facing. I'm 99% sure that affects incorporeal models since most affects state if they are not applied to incorporeal models if it falls outside of the categories you listed.

Kisaragi
01-03-2016, 06:53 PM
So, so far it's about 50/50 on whether or not Force Lock affects Incorporeal models.


Force lock says enemy models in this models melee range can not advance except to change their facing. I'm 99% sure that affects incorporeal models since most affects state if they are not applied to incorporeal models if it falls outside of the categories you listed.

Then what would be the point of listing those categories? If anything that didn't fall in those categories could affect Incorporeal models there'd be no reason for them (that's my interpretation anyway). Although I can see where you're coming from, there are spells which specifically call out Incorporeal models as well as some effects, however, given how rulings have gone nowadays I can't be sure exactly how anything interacts anymore unless an infernal specifically calls it out.

solkan
01-03-2016, 07:44 PM
If you're taking a popularity poll to determine what's correct, you're very much going in the wrong direction as far as understanding the rules goes.

If you have a question about why a spell or effect that calls out incorporeal models calls out incorporeal models, you should specify the spell or effect in question. Because there are a few spells and effects which specify "non-incorporeal" models to exclude them for various reasons and some effects which specify "incorporeal models" specifically to 'pick on' those models. Be specific and people will be able to explain the details.

Kisaragi
01-03-2016, 09:12 PM
If you're taking a popularity poll to determine what's correct, you're very much going in the wrong direction as far as understanding the rules goes.

If you have a question about why a spell or effect that calls out incorporeal models calls out incorporeal models, you should specify the spell or effect in question. Because there are a few spells and effects which specify "non-incorporeal" models to exclude them for various reasons and some effects which specify "incorporeal models" specifically to 'pick on' those models. Be specific and people will be able to explain the details.

I'm not taking a popularity poll, all I said was that so far the responses from people have been 50/50. I have also done as you have so eloquently suggested in stating the specific effects and situations. I did ask and people have done their best to try and answer my question, however, I am no closer to an answer.

If you have nothing to add to the discussion please do not respond.

FearLord
01-04-2016, 12:19 AM
Checking. Please leave the fluff discussions and bickering outside the rules forum.

FearLord
01-10-2016, 09:06 AM
Answer is that the list of effects in the incorporeal rules is exhaustive. Force Lock will only effect an incorporeal model if it is a rule of a weapon with the magical weapon advantage.

Stormpuppy_Infantry
01-10-2016, 09:27 AM
Answer is that the list of effects in the incorporeal rules is exhaustive. Force Lock will only effect an incorporeal model if it is a rule of a weapon with the magical weapon advantage.

Thanks. Then Force Lock only affects models with Incorporeal when it is attached to the weapon with Magical Quality or effdct of a spell, and if the models have it by itself then it will not affects to models with Incorporeal, right?

lord17c
01-10-2016, 11:59 AM
Thanks. Then Force Lock only affects models with Incorporeal when it is attached to the weapon with Magical Quality or effdct of a spell, and if the models have it by itself then it will not affects to models with Incorporeal, right?


From reading the force lock ability of Janissa and then her leadership. It would seem the ability is on the model, and not the weapon. So I'd have to say that it does not affect the incorporeal models. Though the free strike they would take certainly would affect them.

xyphoid
01-10-2016, 05:16 PM
It feels like this ruling will apply to a variety of other places too where models have non-spell auras that affect nearby models.

For example:

Harbinger's Awe vs living incorporeal models such as Future Haley casting spells.
Terminus's Tough aura vs his friendly incorporeal undead.
The Covenant of Menoth's or Orin's no-spell aura vs Future / Past Haley.

etc

Wild
01-10-2016, 05:36 PM
Xyphoid, that's not necessarily true, as if that were the case then Rasheth's Dark Rituals wouldn't work at all as opposed to just the d3 damage roll never having an effect. Orin's Null Magic on the other hand is a Magic Abiliy-based Special Action. But we'll see what happens here.

Kisaragi
01-10-2016, 05:36 PM
Answer is that the list of effects in the incorporeal rules is exhaustive. Force Lock will only effect an incorporeal model if it is a rule of a weapon with the magical weapon advantage.

Cool, thanks for the answer!

Edit: However, reading some people's responses I hope this hasn't brought up more questions than it has answered. Will this require a new thread?

Po the Barbarian
01-10-2016, 05:44 PM
Xyphoid, that's not necessarily true, as if that were the case then Rasheth's Dark Rituals wouldn't work at all as opposed to just the d3 damage roll never having an effect. Orin's Null Magic on the other hand is a Magic Abiliy-based Special Action. But we'll see what happens here.

perhaps being channeled through is not an "effect" while gaining tough is an "effect"? Not at all clear to me.

Posted a separate thread on the terminus point to try to help with future searches and rule thread clarity.

xyphoid
01-10-2016, 05:47 PM
Good call on Orin, I am wrong.

FearLord
01-10-2016, 11:28 PM
Edit - under discussion.

Locking this one for now.

FearLord
01-17-2016, 08:50 AM
To follow up and catch up with answers given else where - you suffer Force Lock, and therefore Incorporeal models do not suffer the effect of it.

'Suffer effects' is not clearly defined in the game, but the ruling is that you can only 'suffer' a negative effect, not a positive one. If anyone is unclear on a particular effect and it's relationship with incorporeal based on this test, please open a new topic for that particular interaction.