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Tanan
04-04-2016, 02:47 AM
A small-based model "A" and medium-based model "B" are in base-to-base contact. A large-based model "C" throws model” B” to model “A” using a double-handed throw. The model “C” fails the melee attack roll against model “A” --> The model “B” is placed on top of model “A” and model “B” deviates 0", because distance between model “A” and “B” is 0".

According to rules of least disturbance, model “A” is moved in this situation. How model “A” is moved in this situation? Is deviation template used to determinate the direction or does the active player decide?

DivideBy0
04-04-2016, 04:15 AM
A small-based model "A" and medium-based model "B" are in base-to-base contact. A large-based model "C" throws model” B” to model “A” using a double-handed throw. The model “C” fails the melee attack roll against model “A” --> The model “B” is placed on top of model “A” and model “B” deviates 0", because distance between model “A” and “B” is 0".

According to rules of least disturbance, model “A” is moved in this situation. How model “A” is moved in this situation? Is deviation template used to determinate the direction or does the active player decide?

If models are perfectly overlapped, and the rule of least disturbance is invoked, then the deviation template is typically the easiest way of doing it, as the rulebook says to randomly determine the direction.

The following is incorrect, as Neldar's post points out.

But to correct your question: thrown model B wouldn't be placed directly over model A. If you miss your attack, you deviate to a direction from where the thrown model begins its thrown movement. In this case, since B is already contacting A, it can deviate 0", which means it doesn't move at all.
This part I'm not certain of, but I believe since they are already in contact with each other, they still both take the knockdown/collateral damage.

Mod_Neldar
04-04-2016, 06:02 AM
B is placed directly over A when the the throw misses if within range--just like at AOE. It's part of the double-hand throw rules.

Malkav13
04-04-2016, 07:22 PM
Page 55 of Primal: If the attack roll misses, determine the thrown model’s pointof impact by rolling deviation from the center of the other
model’s base. Referencing the deviation rules (p. 59), roll a
d6 for direction and a d3 for distance in inches. If the other
model is beyond the throw distance, determine deviation
from a point on the line to it equal to the throw distance.
The thrown model moves directly from its current location
in a straight line to the determined point of impact.

So, you would deviate from the center of the target model in this case.

Tanan
04-04-2016, 10:34 PM
If A and B are 0,00001" apart, it's easy to move A according to rules of least disturbance, because model B deviates 0,000005". It's only in the case of 0" distance that the rules aren't 100% clear. For example, if we use the deviation template to move the model A, whoever gets to decide the deviation template direction might* gain an in-game advantage.

* I mean if you are stupid and place the deviation template in a non-optimal way, then obviously your opponent has an in-game advantage.

Robobengt
04-04-2016, 11:14 PM
Shouldn't the deviation template be with the 4 to the thrower and the 1 to the target model?

Tanan
04-04-2016, 11:29 PM
Shouldn't the deviation template be with the 4 to the thrower and the 1 to the target model?That is true when thrown model deviates. In this case, the thrown model doesn't deviate (0" = no deviation?) --> It's not clear to me, how the rule of least disturbance should be followed.

Mod_GoLu
04-04-2016, 11:45 PM
The least disturbance rules have this to say:

If there are multiple options that yield the least distance - if one model is centered over another, for example - randomly determine the option to use.

Arlaharen
04-05-2016, 12:14 AM
The point of impact deviates from the small model's center (not model B itself). As the models are in base contact the point of impact scatters 0". According to the section Malkav posted the medium based model is then moved straight towards the point of impact until the base touches that point. In this case, Model B moves a distance equal to half a small base. The small base is subsequently overlapped, contacted and then the rule of least disturbance is invoked.

Dev Null
04-05-2016, 08:18 AM
That's interesting Araharen; I never thought of it that way. Does the thrown model stop as soon as it touches the point of impact? Or only when it is centered on the point of impact? (The exact phrase is "moves directly from its current location in a straight line to the determined point of impact" - so it seems ambiguous.)

There's another issue here, I think. As Araharen points out, the point of impact starts at the center of the target model. The deviation distance is limited by the distance between the thrown model and the intended point of impact. That distance is _never_ 0", because it will always be at least half the base size of the target - the distance from its base edge to it's center. And then we use half of that distance as a maximum. We're specifically told on p60 to "use the exact value for this maximum; do not round it". So the maximum (and presumably only) deviation will be a quarter of the base size of the target - in this case about .3".

Then, as Arlaharen points out, B moves towards that point. (Until it touches it, or is centered on it; I'm not sure which at this point.) Either way its not going to end up perfectly centered on the target. It's not much, but it's plenty to solve the question of which way to move with least disturbance.

DivideBy0
04-05-2016, 03:50 PM
The intended point of impact is the target model. The distance between the current location and the intended point of impact is 0" when they are base to base. Only after the throw attack misses is the deviation template centered on the target model.
Just like an AOE attack targeting a model barely within its range gains half the base size to its possible distance if it deviates to the 1, 2, or 6.

Dev Null
04-05-2016, 04:50 PM
Well it's true that it doesn't ever define what it means by the intended point of impact for a two-handed throw:


If the attack roll misses, determine the thrown model’s point
of impact by rolling deviation from the center of the other
model’s base.
...
The thrown model moves directly from its current location
in a straight line to the determined point of impact. The
deviation distance cannot exceed half the distance between
the thrown model and the intended point of impact.

(Emphasis mine.) But since you're finding the actual by deviating from a specific point (the center of the target) that does seem like an obvious candidate.

If you want the intended point of impact to be an entire base, and not a point (as it appears to be for the single-handed throw example on the page before), then the other obvious candidate would presumably be "where the model would have ended up if you had successfully hit" (therefore, the result you intended.) But this is still not the target model, since on a hit you stop moving as soon as you make contact with the target. And then you'd get a bunch of confusing interactions with that "spot" and other rules, which seems to make all of this much harder than it would be if you left the intended point of impact as a point, not a base, just like it appears to be for single-handed throws.

Tanan
04-05-2016, 08:17 PM
Hmm. Malkav is probably right. Model B is placed on top of model A. Model B has travelled 15mm (half of small model base) + 20 (half of medium model base) = 35mm = 1.37795276". Model B therefore deviates 0.68897638" --> Model A can be easily moved according to rules of least disturbance.