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Jamie P
06-13-2010, 04:46 AM
The Cryx book seems to have another poor tool tip in it. It says that the deathjack can gain souls from all its trample attacks. I just want to get someone to confirm again that this is not accurate and the deatchjack can only gains souls from within 2 inches of its finishing possition.

MrRuffles
06-13-2010, 05:43 AM
The Cryx book seems to have another poor tool tip in it. It says that the deathjack can gain souls from all its trample attacks. I just want to get someone to confirm again that this is not accurate and the deatchjack can only gains souls from within 2 inches of its finishing possition.

Even though you roll the trample attacks after the model moves, they get hit and die as the model was moving over them. So yes you get the souls.

Malekhant
06-13-2010, 05:46 AM
Does the tool tip specify all or is that an assumption.

MrRuffles
06-13-2010, 05:51 AM
Does the tool tip specify all or is that an assumption.


Tool tip says it gets souls even on a trample.

Trampled models don't suddenly die after the jack is __" past them and stopped moving. They die as the jack is stepping on them. Even though you roll dice after it moves.

Otherwise it would take forever to roll to hit and damage each model one at a time. Move jack, roll to hit, and roll damage if hit. Move jack, roll to hit, and roll damage if hit. Move jack, roll to hit, and roll damage if hit.

Malekhant
06-13-2010, 06:20 AM
Ruling is still the same, unless a purple changes their old ruling. Only resolved from where he lands, same as before.

MrRuffles
06-13-2010, 06:39 AM
Tactical Tip say "Yes, the DJ gets soul tokens for models it tramples".

So this is going to have to get cleared up again. And the old ruling baffles me.

drugar101
06-13-2010, 07:27 AM
Obviously a death jack can get souls from tramples. models are dying... However you still have to follow the limitation of distance and you measure the distance from where the model is.



There is no such indication. So you resolved trample as if the model was...where it actually is :)

And you don't resolve trample attacks until it has stopped moving.


They removed the sentence about resolving trample attacks as if the model was still back where it first contacted a given model. Here is another infernal confirming it was intentional:

https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?1187-Trample-Timing&p=15560#post15560

Jamie P
06-13-2010, 08:14 AM
Thankyou :)

petegrrrr
06-13-2010, 08:40 AM
You only get soul tokens from models within 2 inches of the death jacks final position.

the word "Models" probably just refers to the fact that you can trample multiple models, of which some will give you soul tokens. Your reading WAYYYYY too much into it.

Vondell
06-13-2010, 08:42 AM
I will have to go with Mr. Ruffles on this. I asked this same question, but that thread has sunk into oblivion with no clarification. As I had stated before, I will abide but whatever final ruling on this is. I would just like an updated Infernal ruling since the book is now out and "might" actually change things.

petegrrrr
06-13-2010, 08:45 AM
I have to go with the infernal ruling on this :D

This is not a death jack question, this is a trample attack resolution question, and it has been answered by two different infernals already.

Vondell
06-13-2010, 08:58 AM
I have to go with the infernal ruling on this :D

This is not a death jack question, this is a trample attack resolution question, and it has been answered by two different infernals already.


Before the tactical tip. It is primarily a Deathjack question as that is where the tip came from. The fact that PP went out of their way to say "Yes, the Deathjack gets soul tokens for models it tramples" in the Deathjack Tactical Tips after these discussions on the matter indicate that some things may have changed. Once again, I would just like an "updated" ruling by an Infernal so I can make sure I can play correctly and as competitively as possible. Because, if it does change, it would affect not only the DJ, but also the Harrower and any Helljack with Venethrax's Soul Harvester on it.

milothewise
06-13-2010, 09:03 AM
Why would the tactical tip change anything? It is not an addition or change to the rules in any way. It is meant to be a reminder, or a way of clearing up weird situations before they become a problem in the game. Whether or not they succeed at that is another question, of course, but the fact remains that anyone who thinks a tactical tip overrules an Infernal ruling (or two) is being silly or obstinate.

Malekhant
06-13-2010, 09:03 AM
The number of things affected by this "change" inruling leads me to suspect that there is none, as it would change a number of interactions

Vondell
06-13-2010, 09:10 AM
Why would the tactical tip change anything? It is not an addition or change to the rules in any way. It is meant to be a reminder, or a way of clearing up weird situations before they become a problem in the game. Whether or not they succeed at that is another question, of course, but the fact remains that anyone who thinks a tactical tip overrules an Infernal ruling (or two) is being silly or obstinate.

I am being neither silly nor obstinate. At no point in time has it been said that the Infernal ruling is incorrect, nor has it been argued with. I don't think it's too much to ask for an updated(once again, updated) ruling. If it remains the same, fine. If it changes, fine. I will abide by whatever ruling, as long as it's current and made with the new information available.

MrRuffles
06-13-2010, 09:42 AM
Hell, I am not even a Cryx player and I think the DJ is getting boned on this one.


but the fact remains that anyone who thinks a tactical tip overrules an Infernal ruling (or two) is being silly or obstinate.

lol, wasn't the ruling before the book came out?


Your reading WAYYYYY too much into it.

Heh, see the topics on the Behemoth and Jr Warcaster for reading way too much into it. Or the ten post topic on if you can cast spells and run.

Bottom line is there are WAY to many wording and typo issues with the MKII rules and we need the FAQ from the PP staff. Instead of having this limbo on things we have now. Look how long it took for Sloan's feat.

On a side note, this should get locked pretty soon.

Kommissar Golovko
06-13-2010, 01:25 PM
If I remember the DJ rules, he can get souls within 2" of him. So it tramples and where the DJ ends after the tramples you can then get the souls of the models within 2" of him. This answers the "models" question. Nothing has changed even with the wording of the tactical tip. Nothing has changed with respect to the how trample is resolved as has been mentioned. You still resolve trample at the end of the movement.

petegrrrr
06-13-2010, 03:21 PM
Nothing in the tactical tip changes the way the deathjack gather focus

It says the death jack may gain souls from models it tramples. Which it can.

It says nothing to counter the ruling on those souls only coming from the final 2 inches.

If a model tramples 5 other models, and gets soul tokens off the final two, it makes perfect sense to use the plural of model, because the deathjack can get souls off multiple models this way.

You cannot base an entire arguement of the pluralization of the word model, because it does not prove or disprove ANY point, as it applies perfectly well to the current wording.

MrRuffles
06-13-2010, 06:10 PM
The point was that even though you roll dice after the jack moves the trampled models die when the jack goes over them. But that was missed.

drugar101
06-13-2010, 06:17 PM
The point was that even though you roll dice after the jack moves the trampled models die when the jack goes over them. But that was missed.

That is your point. The rules at no point imply that is the case. They even removed the rule stating it worked that way.

Kommissar Golovko
06-13-2010, 07:20 PM
What he said. Besides, if that happened, I would seriously campaign for changing the PC of the DJ from 12 to 14.

petegrrrr
06-13-2010, 07:36 PM
The point was that even though you roll dice after the jack moves the trampled models die when the jack goes over them. But that was missed.

It wasn't missed. It was addressed. A ruling on timing was made.

You may wish that the rulings didn't work the way they do, but that in no way invalidates the rulings.

If we agree or not, we cannot just demand changes or re-rulings whenever we feel something doesn't work how WE think it should. There are a couple rulings I think are kind of silly, but I don't just counter them based on the fact that I don't like them, because then the game spirals out of control.

Next thing you know, it turns into the "who can yell the loudest when arguing a ruling" environment that had players fleeing other game systems for warmachine and hordes.

RuneGrey
06-13-2010, 08:44 PM
It wasn't missed. It was addressed. A ruling on timing was made.

You may wish that the rulings didn't work the way they do, but that in no way invalidates the rulings.

If we agree or not, we cannot just demand changes or re-rulings whenever we feel something doesn't work how WE think it should. There are a couple rulings I think are kind of silly, but I don't just counter them based on the fact that I don't like them, because then the game spirals out of control.

Next thing you know, it turns into the "who can yell the loudest when arguing a ruling" environment that had players fleeing other game systems for warmachine and hordes.

The problem is that we have a new ruling that is in text in one of the books, which is something that people are going to see a lot more than the rules forums. If the ruling were made after the Cryx book was released, then you can easily state that the Infernal ruling overrides the book. However, what we see here is a tactical tip that directly contradicts the Infernal ruling. I think given that the official print media states differently than a previously established Infernal ruling, it's not unfair to ask if a change in policy was made. Because to all indications it was.

Snoitpo
06-13-2010, 09:03 PM
I personally don't care yet since I don't have a DeathJack but re-reading the Tactical Tip made me think about how they made the ruling. I believe that they imagine the Jack is too busy running chumps over to bother pulling out its pick-nick basket and daintily picking up souls of the defeated as it would ruin his momentum.

petegrrrr
06-13-2010, 09:12 PM
The problem is that we have a new ruling that is in text in one of the books, which is something that people are going to see a lot more than the rules forums. If the ruling were made after the Cryx book was released, then you can easily state that the Infernal ruling overrides the book. However, what we see here is a tactical tip that directly contradicts the Infernal ruling. I think given that the official print media states differently than a previously established Infernal ruling, it's not unfair to ask if a change in policy was made. Because to all indications it was.

It is not a new ruling. Nothing about it changes the way tramples are ruled. This entire arguement is based on the "s" that follows "model"...but it still works with the old ruling. It's wishful thinking, and it does not contradict previous rulings at all.

If the tool tip said " ALL models trampled give the deathjack a soul token" then yes, you would have an arguement. But merely using the word models does nothing to change the ruling, as you do in fact get soul tokens from MODELS within 2 inches.

Vondell
06-14-2010, 02:15 AM
It is not a new ruling. Nothing about it changes the way tramples are ruled. This entire arguement is based on the "s" that follows "model"...but it still works with the old ruling. It's wishful thinking, and it does not contradict previous rulings at all.

If the tool tip said " ALL models trampled give the deathjack a soul token" then yes, you would have an arguement. But merely using the word models does nothing to change the ruling, as you do in fact get soul tokens from MODELS within 2 inches.


No argument was made about the "s" in "models". The concern is over the tip itself. Why even put it in? If indeed nothing has changed, PP may as well have put "Tactical Tip-Cull Soul-Yes, the Deathjack has the Cull Soul ability."

All we are asking is "which is the correct ruling, the Infernal post that came out before the book, or what could be interpreted in the book itself?"

As stated before, we have not said the previous ruling is incorrect. Nor has anyone said "the Deathjack gets to collect souls for any models it tramples at any time." We just want an updated ruling since the book is out and can/will confuse people if it is in fact one way but read another.

lobachevskii
06-14-2010, 02:58 AM
No argument was made about the "s" in "models". The concern is over the tip itself. Why even put it in? If indeed nothing has changed, PP may as well have put "Tactical Tip-Cull Soul-Yes, the Deathjack has the Cull Soul ability."


The assumption that a Tactical Tip needs to be in some way significant doesn't really hold water. Every model that I've seen with Aggressive has the following Tactical Tip:


Aggressive - Yes, this rule is HORDES friendly.

Given the wording of Aggressive this is blindingly obvious ... . So, as you say, why even put it in? I have no idea. I'm not going to try to read something into it though.

Mootaz
06-14-2010, 03:14 AM
This tactical tip does not change how the Deathjack collects souls. It is just a tip to remind people that attacking with the claws/tusks is not the only way for the Deathjack to collect souls.

Kommissar Golovko
06-14-2010, 03:27 AM
And with that answer, this thread is done.

vintersbastard
06-14-2010, 07:39 AM
And thanks for that, Mootaz.;)

Devilsquid
06-14-2010, 08:54 AM
Yeah, they're not mutually disqualifying. The DJ gets souls from models it tramples, but those models have to be within 2" of it's final place in order for it to collect them.

Tah dah!

I got to do some fun trampling with the DJ the other day. Dark Guidance is super fun for that...

Vondell
06-14-2010, 01:26 PM
Thank you for the udpate and clarification. That was all that was asked for.