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Yertle4
06-13-2010, 11:20 AM
See this thread for reference: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?17260-Halberdiers-Reform-amp-running&highlight=reform
Specifically the last comment.

One of our local Retribution players is very proud of this rules loophole, which seems legit but at the same time sketchy, so I thought I'd run it by your theorymachine minds:

- Everyone in the unit runs - except for one guy at the back (let's call him Bob). Bob charges one of his own models in the rear. However, the player charges Bob in such a way that while Bob is in melee range of his charge target, he does not have LOS to his charge target as a Soulless Escort is conveniently perfectly positioned to block LOS.

Charge target in melee range, but no LOS, no charge attack, and therefore no action.

Can the Halberdiers reform if this happens?

Yaum
06-13-2010, 01:17 PM
That's shabby at best. I would say only the charging model can reform. The other ran, no actions. No actions, no reform.

vintersbastard
06-13-2010, 02:34 PM
After taking another look at the text of Reform, which refers to the step after all models in the unit have completed their actions (step #11 of the activation order chart on p. 244 of Prime), I think that Yaum is correct. Models that ran during their activation have already ended their activation, and are thus already past / didn't reach this step of activation, so they don't get the 3" advance.

hausdorff space
06-13-2010, 06:32 PM
...Is the question whether they can reform if they run and one charges?
I'm pretty sure there's a previous ruling saying yes. (but would welcome being corrected)

Being the RoS player in question... I think the main question was "as the charge attack cannot be made, does it still have to make an attack" (to trigger reform)?
- I think the answer will be yes.

Yaum
06-13-2010, 07:35 PM
Is the question whether they can reform if they run and one charges?
I'm pretty sure there's a previous ruling saying yes. (but would welcome being corrected).
Hi :)
You're welcome to search for this ruling and post it here. Cause by the rules as written I can't see it happening.

Now, for the charge attack part I'll take a wild guess : A charge combine your movement and action. At the end of your movement you are compelled to attack your charge target (unless you get the Hell out of Dodge using some other mean, ie. Gatecrasher). If you cannot make that attack, you don't have to attack anyone else or make additionnal attacks. You still had an action, though.

So in that sense, you get to reform for your charging model, even if they didn't attack their charge target.

WarJack Prime
06-14-2010, 11:05 AM
This would be useful to have clarified. I thought even if all of them ran they could reform because they still ended their action phase or whatever.

absent
06-14-2010, 11:22 AM
Um the charger has failed his charge and his activation immediately ends too, so every activation has immediately ended, the unit's turn is over, right. I don't think it matters if you have reach range if you fail to actually get engaged.

Maybe if you charge a model, then run the escort in between, but i think you are grasping at straws.

silverpuppy
06-14-2010, 11:23 AM
lets break it down a little.

if a model forfeits its action to run does that count as finishing its action?

if a model charges but then does NOT have LOS to its target and there for does not make an attack can he then end his charge and call that ending his action?

last if a rule requires ALL models to finish there actions does that mean each model must have had an action phase if and only if forfeiting action does not count as finishing action?

LaBambaMan
06-14-2010, 11:39 AM
Doesn't the entire unit have to run or charge? You know, as a group? So if one charges, they all have to charge.

rydiafan
06-14-2010, 11:46 AM
Doesn't the entire unit have to run or charge? You know, as a group? So if one charges, they all have to charge.

No. Each of them must do one of the two things, individually.

absent
06-14-2010, 11:46 AM
No charge order allows any or all models in the unit to run.

absent
06-14-2010, 11:47 AM
I think the exact wording of reform would help to shed the light on this too.

silverpuppy
06-14-2010, 11:53 AM
Granted Reform - While this model is in play, after all models in its unit have completed their actions, each can advance up to
3˝.

from the hordes pdf rules

edit: taking the granted text out doesnt change the rule. so the questions to ask are posted earlier

absent
06-14-2010, 11:58 AM
Ok sorry i just should have grabbed my roommates ret book

Reform says (after all modlels in it's unit have completed their actions, each can advance up to 3" )

So you can charge one, run the other 11, and all 12 will get the reform. Now if that one charges and fails, he ends his activation, no one gets an action, no reform, and you must get your target in melee during the charge move. Then as i said before you can run your soulless escort EXACTLY between them and stop the charge attack.

So yeah i do beleive the way the ret player played this is correct.

However, it's really hard for one small base model to completely block LOS to another, and i would probably end up being able to make a case for him gimping his own guy out almost every time. If he's going to do this (exploit) he has to accept the fact that if he moves even remotely wrong you can force him to smoke his own guy, and i do think you should be as much of a stickler as possible about it and not allow any takebacks, since he's trying to use a rules loophole any repricussions should be faced in full.

(also reform only makes you finish your action, not attack, or it wouldn't be very good with sheildwall, so as to the second part of the question, so you have a charging model. That model no longer is in melee with it's charge target. Now it can choose to attack another model, whether it chooses to or not it's action ends. At this point every models action has ended, and you may reform)

LaBambaMan
06-14-2010, 11:59 AM
No. Each of them must do one of the two things, individually.

Huh, that's a little odd. I guess I thought it was the other way since I just charge the whole unit.

silverpuppy
06-14-2010, 12:05 PM
the thing that is bugging me is the after ALL models in the unit have completed there action.

so with that being said if even one doesnt have an action should that not stop the reform? the word all is pretty straight forward. and if thats not the case then why not just run all the models and reform?

silverpuppy
06-14-2010, 12:07 PM
@ labambaman, if you go back through and read charge orders again you will see that it is noted that each model in the unit MUST either run OR charge

absent
06-14-2010, 12:09 PM
so with that being said if even one doesnt have an action should that not stop the reform? the word all is pretty straight forward. and if thats not the case then why not just run all the models and reform?

Because if 12 of 12 have run, their activation is over the moment their run ends, and there is no window for "completed all actions" as every activation in the unit is already over their turn passes. However if just one has charged now there is an action to be completed before the unit is done activating, allowing you to negotiate the reform.

Edit 2:
Note that reform doesn't say "each model that has completed it's action" it says "after all actions are completed" meaning some of the models could have no action.

silverpuppy
06-14-2010, 12:16 PM
i do see your point about the charge vs all running. that still leaves the portion about a model forfeiting its action to run. if you look at other rules that trigger of of ending movement or action they donot trigger if a model forfeits said phase. now with that said if the rule stats after all models have completed there actions and some models have forfeited there actions they cannot ALL complete there actions correct?

absent
06-14-2010, 12:24 PM
I'm fairly certain choosing not to attack will end your action, rather than forfeit it.

LaBambaMan
06-14-2010, 12:27 PM
@ labambaman, if you go back through and read charge orders again you will see that it is noted that each model in the unit MUST either run OR charge

I just tend to have the whole unit act as a whole. You know.....when they aren't getting murderized.

silverpuppy
06-14-2010, 12:34 PM
Running doesnt give you an option. it says you MUST forfeit your action to run. also Charging states you MUST attack your charge target if he is in melee range. but that is not the problem im having with the rule and what is being accomplished. its the word all actions and the forfeiting action to run interactions that are wonky at best

edit: the word all actions to me would mean that the whole unit must have an action that turn to allow reform which cant happen if even one model forfeits it to run. thats what im getting at.

absent
06-14-2010, 12:39 PM
You are definitely wrong. All actions means each one that was available, not that every model had to take one. If every model had to take an action for reform to work it would say exactly that. Also you must attack your charge target if he's in melee range, which is why the soulless escort is running in between the charging halb and the charged halb, to remove melee reach therefor your charging halb doesn't have to attack a friendly model. I think the retribution player found a clearly working as written case here.

silverpuppy
06-14-2010, 12:53 PM
that explaination works for me then.

i would then simply to respond to the op with this....just make sure when his souless escort blocks the LOS that it is in the right spot to the micro scope as it should be quite tough to line that up perfectly to block :)

absent
06-14-2010, 12:55 PM
That was exactly my recommendation as well, most of the time he's going to shaft his own guy in the back for a reform on the rest.

drugar101
06-14-2010, 01:43 PM
problem is he could use two models to block LOS towards the 'right side' of the model but the trickster that is charging starts towards the left side in such a fashion that the charging model started with that model in LOS but ended its movement 'in melee range' but not in LOS. This will actually be rather easy to do once you are familiar with the trick.

It seems a bit cheesy tho.

absent
06-14-2010, 01:46 PM
Halbs have ranked attack, meaning they would need to use an outside solo to have 2 models available to block that LOS. So it's not self sustained at that point.

drugar101
06-14-2010, 02:24 PM
oh in that incase, i say its nearly impossible to line up 3 models perfectly in line. so ya, 99% of time, the charging model will have los

vintersbastard
06-14-2010, 02:34 PM
Getting back to the actual question, has anybody addressed the argument I put forward in post #3?
To reiterate it:

Models that ran during their activation have already ended their activation, and are thus already past / didn't reach this step of activation (#11 of the chart on p. 244 of Prime: "after all models in the unit have completed their actions"), so they don't get the 3" advance.
Reform specifically refers to a step during activation, which troopers that ran don't get to, as they immediatly end their respective activation.

absent
06-14-2010, 02:36 PM
Units don't pass their activation until every model in the unit is done, however. And since that ability triggers after all actions are done, and doesn't say models that ran can't reform, your point means little as far as i understand. also never once does reform mention anything like you seem to imply it does?

hausdorff space
06-14-2010, 02:43 PM
Getting back to the actual question, has anybody addressed the argument I put forward in post #3?...I might be wrong here, but I'd put forward that if it worked like that, then no unit would ever get reform as for the last one to have completed it's action, all the others must have done so before it (and thus completed their activations).


As for making an unfailing unmakeable charge.
If you can determine LoS as you move (I'm not saying you can here), then you can move until you now longer have LoS and then stop.
If you're explicit about where the models stopping it shouldn't be an issue (it's comparable to touching a forest with almost all of your base out of it, you make clear to your opponent what your movement is doing).
If that doesn't work, one model can charge another before that model runs - no free strikes agaist friendlies.

silverpuppy
06-14-2010, 02:47 PM
Vinter, as absent said, refering to my question about the use of the word "all" in the text about reform. "all" covers only the models that have an action that turn, its not all inclusive to every model. that said the one model charging gives the action portion to the unit and thus allows the reform to happen.

absent
06-14-2010, 02:48 PM
I don't care how explicit you are with your intentions, if you are using this and end in melee reach and LOS i'm making you attack your dude =) By making use of this you are playing exactly by the rules and as such i am going to also. Meaning if you end your movement and have reach to your charge target during the attacking segment, you are making that attack. I don't care if it's because you ended 1/16th inch further than you wanted to, thats your fault at that point. I'd give leeway if you weren't using a rules lawyer method of getting an effect.

And yeah you can charge a model, then run the target, but that leaves your charger way the hell back, so thats another work around

drugar101
06-14-2010, 02:49 PM
Review the timing rules:

9. The model makes its action.
10.Resolve effects that occur at end of action and at end of combat action.
11.If activating a unit, repeat steps 9 and 10 for all troopers, then resolve effects that occur at end of unit’s actions.

for models that don't run, there activation doesn't end until step 11 after every model ends its activation.

silverpuppy
06-14-2010, 02:55 PM
Lets not let this thread digress into a battle, we have the rules, we have the right wording and we have how it is played, things like allowing intent to of model placement vs rule as law and what not are for the players to hash out on the table, but we really shouldnt turn this into an argument about that stuff :)

Yaum
06-14-2010, 04:14 PM
What interest me is as per page 46 a model who runs doesn't "forfeit" its action. It just can't make one. That's why I'm no way certain it works the way you're saying it does.

Anyway, for once I think an Infernal answer is required here. And they're probably looking into it. So there's no point arguing like there's no tomorrow until they come by.

tuttleboy
06-14-2010, 06:41 PM
As it's all written it looks perfectly legal, but as has been stated I'd be checking the LOS after the Retribution player said he was done moving and make him take the attack if he hadn't lined up the models properly to block LOS to his charge target.

My gut reaction is that this will need some sort of errata saying that if the unit gets the charge order only those making a successful charge may reform to stop shenanigans like this, which to me is borderline waterfalling-esque shenanigans...not that I don't like the occasional shenanigan. :D

Malekhant
06-14-2010, 07:38 PM
I am assuming that they only get to reform after they complete their actions, so only the charging model gets to reform. All the other 11 models of the unit just stand there having not completed their actions-since they cannot perform one after running.

absent
06-14-2010, 07:40 PM
It doesn't say 'models that complete their action may move 3" ' it doesn't matter if you had an action or not per model, the unit gets a move after any actions are complete.

Malekhant
06-14-2010, 07:51 PM
Then there should be no reason that the entire unit not be allowed to reform

ChadeFIN
06-14-2010, 10:06 PM
So as a Ret player myself let my do some summary on this topic. From what I've understood:

1. Am I allowed to reform if all the models ran?
- No.

2. Am I allowed to reform if at least one halberdier charged and reached his charge target succesfully?
- Yes, you are allowed to reform with all the models in the unit.

3. Do I have to attack my own halberdier who was charged by another halberdier to gain reform?
- Yes, you have to attack. However you can't make the attack if a) the target model is no longer in your melee area
because it has moved away or b) LOS to the target model is completely blocked by Soulless Escort (because in a unit with
ranked attacks only that WA can block LOS).

I think this is it from the rules point of view at this time.

Stevo
06-15-2010, 12:17 AM
Halbs have ranked attack, meaning they would need to use an outside solo to have 2 models available to block that LOS. So it's not self sustained at that point.

In the OP a Soulless Escort is used to block LOS. It's a member of the unit, but it does not gain Ranked Attacks.

As to the LOS issue and the difficulty in blocking LOS between small models using only small model bases, the unit could easily have two Escorts to get around that issue.

absent
06-15-2010, 08:59 AM
Didn't know you could attach more than one per unit. Yeah that would easily work if you had 2.

Stevo
06-15-2010, 09:47 AM
Didn't know you could attach more than one per unit. Yeah that would easily work if you had 2.

Yeah, you can have three attachments per Warcaster, and you can have three Soulless Escorts per attachment. For a unit like Halberdiers I don't know if more than one is really needed, unless you are planning on trying this rather silly maneuver.