View Full Version : Tier List First Round benefits

07-05-2010, 01:41 PM
I thought I'd keep this here in the money-grubbing haven of safety I at the moment call home, since the rules forum seems to be a place where rules lawyers and worse lurk, waiting to pounce on the timid and unsure and gnaw off exposed body parts.

I have seen several tier lists give a first turn benefit to one unit or another (or several) which does not normally exist for that unit. For the purposes of a purely theoretical example which shouldn't get anyone in trouble, let's presume a tier list for Vinter Raelthorne (naturally now a mercenary, since the Skorne didn't work out for him), which assumes that you have a unit of Sword Knights and their Inquisitor UA at tier 2, and if you do so, for the first round they are Abominations.

Now, does that mean the first game round, starting with the first player's first turn, lasting through the second player's first turn, and ending at the beginning of the first player's second turn?

Or, does that mean a player's round, such that they are abominations until the start of their player's second turn, whether that player goes first or second? And if so, are they abominations at all until the start of their player's first turn?


Thrown to the wolves, eh? All Rules Law- er... Wolves, yes, Wolves will kindly disregard the first paragraph. This was first uttered in the smoky den of iniquity otherwise known as Mercs Main, since I didn't want to turn this into any big deal, just get a very fine and narrow point of order established. With that, let the sockjacking commence!

hausdorff space
07-05-2010, 03:17 PM
I don't have any rules handy, but I would assume that as they (going off memory) say "for the first round", it would be for the first two turns (as in your first option).

07-05-2010, 04:12 PM
The first round of the game consists of the first player's first turn followed by the second player's first turn.

07-06-2010, 07:13 AM
I don't have any rules handy, but I would assume that as they (going off memory) say "for the first round", it would be for the first two turns (as in your first option).
Actually, many of them currently say "first turn of the game." In some cases, that makes sense and is fine, but while in others it pretty clearly is supposed to say "round", or some benefits are less than useful. I vaguely recall hearing there would be some errata on some of them, but search-fu is failing me.

E.g., Mortenebra's Tier 2 benefit is "Helljacks gain Stealth :Stealth: during your furst turn of the game." (FoW:Cryx, p. 32) Stealth on only your own turn is a little useless, since it would really only apply against enemy models making some kind of out-of-activation ranged attack...

07-06-2010, 09:02 AM
Funnily enough, that is exactly my question. I looked in Prime, I forget which page, and found that there are two definitions of "round" when talking about game terms, and so far as I, in my ignorance, understand, either one might well work. A game round, in the abstract, is defined as two turns, one taken by each player, in the order established at the start of the game. So, we have:

Round 1 Begins
Player 1 takes turn 1
Player 2 takes turn 1
Round 1 Ends

But, for the purpose of abilities, a game round is one complete cycle post activation, terminating during the control phase of the controlling player's next turn. So for determining an ability which lasts for one round, a game round is:

Ability is activated; Ability Round begins
Player who activated ability finishes turn.
Opposing player takes turn.
Ability Round Ends; ability effect ceases to exist.

And that's what I wanted cleared up. The answer appears to be that for a temporary tier list benefit's purposes, its duration lasts from the start of the game to the beginning of the first player's second turn. Not quite the answer I wanted to hear, since it makes most tier-granted temporary effects... well, essentially of no value except in very special circumstances (when units are advance deployed while part of a list which increases deployment zone size).