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TexasWombat
10-28-2010, 06:47 PM
For a unit with suppressing fire, does the entire unit have to combine into a single AOE or multiple small AOE. Take a 10 man unit of Cygnar Long Gunners with UA, are they limited to a 5" AOE, or can they lay down 5 3" AOEs.

From a tactics perspective, a 15" linear area of denial would make advancing into a gun line more difficult and more effective from the gunline perspective.

maddermax
10-28-2010, 07:15 PM
The suppressing fire order allows you to put down a single template for the unit, of the dimensions described in the rule, and all participants must forfeit their actions.

It's not like a normal CRA, where you can assign different models to different attacks, they all participate to this one effect.

Hope that helps :)

Crate123
10-28-2010, 07:25 PM
They must all join in on the order and you can only place 1 template, you cant have 4 guys make a template and have the rest make other templates or even shooting other targets.

TexasWombat
10-29-2010, 03:26 AM
The way the rule is written, it does indicate a single AOE, but the problem is that with all infantry operating as skirmishers, then there is nothing to prevent that infantry from flowing around the AOE. The key problem with a unit of long gunners is you get one shot at the other unit before they charge you and it is unlikely to kill enough heavy infantry. However, if you can lay down 5 3" AOEs side by side, then the advancing infantry can't flow around it, without disrupting their attack pattern and they get hit by the AOEs, then follow up with a round of shooting normally from the long gunners and then whatever is left could, if anything is left, charge. The way the rules are right now charging a gun line just isn't painful enough.

Example a 12DEF 18ARM infantry unit advances on long gunners, if the advance is planned right, the long gunners get one shot before the infantry charges, based on probability they will kill 3.25 infantry with 20 shots. Less if it is only a 6 figure unit. Now if you can lay down suppressing fire in front on the unit, they first advance through the fire taking 28% casualties (9+ on 2d6), and then get hit again losing 3-4 guys, maybe more as some of the posts seem to indicate that when moving into the AOE they would not have shield wall. Down 5-7 guys they can then charge into the gunners. It still isn't looking good for the gunners, but they don't get wiped out immediately.

maddermax
10-29-2010, 03:56 AM
That's more of a point about tactics then rules though.

You should be able to get 3 shots off total, if you position them right - 6" walk, 14" shot, keeping them as far away as possible, then a round of stationary shooting. As for the template, if you want it to be more effective, run two units, or run them with a cyclone and the black 13th, and you can cut off half the board with template damage - which will literally shut down light and most medium infantry (and even heavies would be gambling to walk through). Basically, anything that can get you a single template will cut off a lot more of the board. Even so, a single template is a bonus, and (with the right terrain) can severely hamper enemy movements, or block easy charge lanes for infantry. There really isn't that much ARM 18 infantry around, most are between 14 and 16, which means a better than 50% kill rate even with POW 10.

TheUnknownMercenary
10-29-2010, 08:15 AM
The key problem with a unit of long gunners is you get one shot at the other unit before they charge you and it is unlikely to kill enough heavy infantry.

You need to reread the rules for Long Gunners. If they forfeit movement for an aiming bonus they can make two shots.

blitzmonkey
10-29-2010, 08:58 AM
You need to reread the rules for Long Gunners. If they forfeit movement for an aiming bonus they can make two shots.

Does this mean that if they get the suppression order and gain the aiming bonus, they can put down 2 templates?

TheUnknownMercenary
10-29-2010, 09:07 AM
Does this mean that if they get the suppression order and gain the aiming bonus, they can put down 2 templates?

No, the unit can only make one template.
The unit only gets two shots during it's combat action if the models forfeit their movement for the aiming bonus. When the unit gets the suppressing fire order the affected models have to forfeit their action to order.

maddermax
10-29-2010, 10:24 AM
Yep, if you're in range of the enemy, the units CRAs are a much better option than the template usually. Each gunner is able to add to 2 CRAs in a turn, which makes for a lot of decent RAT/POW shots, or a few very decent shots. The template is a backup, for when you want area denial or they're not in range of something they want to shoot at, and you don't want them just twiddling their thumbs. The CRAs are what long gunners are good for.

Hjelmen0
10-29-2010, 10:33 AM
Yep, if you're in range of the enemy, the units CRAs are a much better option than the template usually. Each gunner is able to add to 2 CRAs in a turn, which makes for a lot of decent RAT/POW shots, or a few very decent shots. The template is a backup, for when you want area denial or they're not in range of something they want to shoot at, and you don't want them just twiddling their thumbs. The CRAs are what long gunners are good for.
But that is a tactical consideration, and not really what the rules forum is for :)

TexasWombat
10-29-2010, 10:39 AM
You need to reread the rules for Long Gunners. If they forfeit movement for an aiming bonus they can make two shots.

10 gunners, 20 shots total, aiming bonus RAT7 vs DEF13 is 72% (was 58% above which is wrong), 14-15 hits, POW10 vs ARM18 is 9's or better on 2d6, 28% - 4 kills on average.


That's more of a point about tactics then rules though. You should be able to get 3 shots off total, if you position them right - 6" walk, 14" shot, keeping them as far away as possible, then a round of stationary shooting. ...

Infantry stops outside your 14" range, you advance to shoot, thats 10 shots at RAT5, 42% hits, 1.2 kills, likely 1. he runs 10-12", you back up 6", range is less than 8-10", you volley again with 10 shots, as he ran, he lost shield wall so you could get 3-4 kills, better to stand still and get a lot more kills, you might actually break him. The problem is if he is smart, he walks with shield wall all the way up to you. You keep picking off a guy, but really soon you run out of table, stand, try and double tap him for 3-4 and then he is into you. But can you really fall back like that and break your line with out other consequences. If he has reach and SPD 6, and you didn't get the distances right it is worse.

Facing Iron Fang Pikemen, they are SPD6, Reach with DEF13 ARM14+4 Shield Wall and I see a lot of units with those same base stats. The heartbreaking part is 10 Long Gunners is 10 pts and 10 Iron Fang Pikemen are 8 pts and my money would be on the IFP. Which is why I don't run Long Gunners. I am new to Warmachine and to Cygnar and the thought that a unit of rifleman can't break a pikeman advance is amazing to me.

TexasWombat
10-29-2010, 11:01 AM
Yep, if you're in range of the enemy, the units CRAs are a much better option than the template usually. Each gunner is able to add to 2 CRAs in a turn, which makes for a lot of decent RAT/POW shots, or a few very decent shots. The template is a backup, for when you want area denial or they're not in range of something they want to shoot at, and you don't want them just twiddling their thumbs. The CRAs are what long gunners are good for.

You would think CRA is great, but checking the odds it isn't, when moving combined range attacks 10 single shots - 1.18 kills, 5 CRA2 shots 1.22 kills, 3 CRA3 shots (+1 guy by himself) 1.37 kills, 2 CRA5 shots 1.53 kills.
Standing still with the aiming bonus, something weird happens, 10 single shots - 2.02 kills, 5 CRA2 shots 1.74 kills, CRA3 shots (+1 guy by himself) 1.8 kills, 2 CRA5 shots 1.66 kills. What's happening is the likelihood to kill jumps up for CRA but the number of attacks is falling, A CRA5 moving is 76% likely to kill, but you only get two of them, versus the 10 shots which are 12% likely.

Historically, I still think that pikemen advancing across open field against long gunners should get slaughtered. Don't get me worng, Warmachine/Hordes is a lot of fun which is why I picked it up, but I just can't buy the Long Gunners.

vintersbastard
10-29-2010, 11:45 AM
Guys, could you please continue this discussion in the Cygnar forum?

maddermax
10-29-2010, 06:55 PM
TexasWombat

Yeah, this should be in the Cygnar forums, but just to make sure you have the actual rules right, don't forget that Iron Pikemen can't run and use shield wall, so you'd get an extra round of shooting against them anyway. Also don't forget that CRAs with two participants are RAT7 POW12 straight off the bat. That would mean average 8 IFP killed in the three shots I mentioned, which isn't bad at all.

But yeah, none of this is rules any more, so bring it up on the Cynar forums, so we don't block up the Rules section.